Intuition

Being able to read your opponents is crucial in poker. If you are not an intuitive person, (and most people are not), you will be limited on how much you can improve in the game of poker. All the software, practice, advise and knowledge of the game will only get you so far. What do you folks think?

I think intuition is very important. When making decisions (especially in live games), I always try to to find the right balance between following my "gut feel" and my logic/math. I find that my gut feel is correct more often than not.

Try following it in a game one time. When you're facing a difficult decision, just decide that you don't care if you lose the hand - and are willing to pay to perform an experiment - then just do what your gut tells you. You'll be surprised at the results you get.

You know it's funny you should suggest that - just today I acted outside of my usual cautious self, and called a guy I sensed had nothing. I doubled up with a pair of pocket 6's. Some players always think that they are the only ones who could have a hand - I always assume that my hand is beat! Balance ... will I ever have it? On my death bed I'll finally figure it out and say "Eureka! That's it!" Then drop dead.

Absolutely, intuition is an essential part of playing and winning for me. It's the part I enjoy most. There are endless variations on how a person/opponent thinks and behaves. It's so interesting and it's fascinating how you will find yourself making a read so quickly...and accurately!

The logical/math ability that Eugenius mentions comes less naturally to me so I have to be very deliberate to make myself use those skills, as well. That part takes practice. And study. And practice.

Poker is a relatively well-balanced left brain/right brain activity, in my opinion. I do think intuitive ability or skill is essential.

I would say use the information that fundamental game theory/math/strategy gives you to make a correct decision in most cases. However, we all know that many hands come up where the decision is not clear cut--this is where reading your opponent and intuition come into play. I think this ability (and the willingness to use it) is what separates good players from the great ones.

Having a "feel" for the game is that intangible extra that can help lift one's game to above par. Relying on it in entirety though is a mistake that I think a lot of players make after they get positive results in the beginning. It can quickly become a bad habit that nudges out sound strategies, so be careful when and where you use it.

NCfoldem said:

Balance ... will I ever have it? On my death bed I'll finally figure it out and say "Eureka! That's it!" Then drop dead.

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LOL

Same here!

Definitely, intuition is a big part of the game, when to make a big laydown, when to fire a third barrel, when to call a big bet. It's tough but it's why we play poker.

NCfoldem said:

If you are not an intuitive person, (and most people are not), you will be limited on how much you can improve in the game of poker. All the software, practice, advise and knowledge of the game will only get you so far.

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I don't agree with this at all. The more experience you get the more intuitive you will be.

Really, Kingme? You don't think that some people are limited when it comes to intuition?

Yes!!! YES!!!! love the topic. Intuition is a HUGE!!!! part of the game and is what seperates winning players from loosing players. You know that your 77 is ahead of the guy who just raised-you just know that a checj raise bluff from the weak limp and steal button man will work!

intuition according to harrington is something that comes from prior knowledge-tonnes of table experience-but I think you have it in your first game-you just feel that you can move a guy off a hand or that your hand A6 or KQ is better than the guy who just raised.

And yes sometimes (especially after alcohol) your table experience tells you youre ahead and you think its intuition lol but the guy has AA. another learned experience for the future!!

NOLA Red said:

I would say use the information that fundamental game theory/math/strategy gives you to make a correct decision in most cases. However, we all know that many hands come up where the decision is not clear cut--this is where reading your opponent and intuition come into play. I think this ability (and the willingness to use it) is what separates good players from the great ones.

Having a "feel" for the game is that intangible extra that can help lift one's game to above par. Relying on it in entirety though is a mistake that I think a lot of players make after they get positive results in the beginning. It can quickly become a bad habit that nudges out sound strategies, so be careful when and where you use it.

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This is all that needs to be said on the subject.

Its so tough to follow ur gut when the math says otherwise but i agree that following that feeling sometimes work out.Thats poker though....feeling your way around the table taking a shot or 2 or 3...

NCfoldem said:

Really, Kingme? You don't think that some people are limited when it comes to intuition?

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No. I guess I must not have much of what you call intuition. Sure I get I get strong feelings and I'm certain I can make a great play and get away with it. But that comes from seeing a certain spot/read many many times so much that I know what to do before I can logically reason it out.

To say that you "sense" the other guy has nothing...I mean what is that based on exactly?

I don't agree with NCfoldem here. Unless you have a serious brain injury in your frontal lobe, you can develop great intuition with a lot of meaningful practice.

You think talent comes in a surprise package at birth? No, you have to work for it, hours and hours. The greatest geniuses of our time didn't get there with talent alone, it took hours of study and training to get them to that point.
If you knew anything about genetics you'd know that they're only predispositions, meaning it's far from set in stone.

Intuition:

1. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.
2. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
3. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.

I think, for the most part, you win because you play good poker while using rational process.

Live or online, I'm not saying there aren't 'reads' because I know there are. But this 'intuition' is just alot of voodoo if you ask me, and is no more than a juicy rationalization for the gamble you just took calling down with your pair of 7's.

Hopefully, you made the decision to call WITH rational process, that is the information you have gathered at the table. If you're making guesses on how you feel, you're just gambling. If you're making guesses based on the
information you have gathered, it's really not intuition, is it? You're not operating on feel, you used rational process based on the information you gathered, right?

If you think you can 'sense' what your opponent is holding, I don't know, I just don't understand such a thing.

I'm thinking the more calls you make 'without the use of rational process' , the worse off you're game will be.

Grinder101 said:

I don't agree with NCfoldem here. Unless you have a serious brain injury in your frontal lobe, you can develop great intuition with a lot of meaningful practice.

You think talent comes in a surprise package at birth? No, you have to work for it, hours and hours. The greatest geniuses of our time didn't get there with talent alone, it took hours of study and training to get them to that point.
If you knew anything about genetics you'd know that they're only predispositions, meaning it's far from set in stone.

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Well I've got news for you...Yes it does!People are not born equal and that's just the way it is!

Ok they may be equal as in I'm great in composing music whereas you are a great movie-maker. And of course even geniuses had to work their ass of to get where they got! but it's because they had initial talent and love for what they're doing that they got to that point...

Even if I love music and I know the basics of a composition, Even if I dedicate my life for it, I don't have the talent that will make me a Beethoven equivalent...Many people tried to study or learn music from a tender age and they did love it! But there was only one Beethoven, one mozart, one bach out of the billions of people! Why? Because they had talent!They were born with a calling that allowed them to become what they became whereas most people who practiced even more never got there!these people might have been good in other things as well but they were not born and dedicated to one thing only...However only archimedes got the intuition to say ''eureka'' and discover gravity for instance. That's because he just had a hunch! No one before him had ever thought of it and society was completely oblivious to it so there was just no data whatsoever, but still, he just thought of it!Now that's a genius born with talent and intuition everybody else did not possess!

That's just the way it is. Otherwise why would we have such a small amount of geniuses(talking about hundred?) out of the billions and billions of people that live in the world?THEY WERE BORN WITH A TALENT THAT OTHERS DID NOT POSSESS!

Oh and I think it also applies to intuition in poker but on a much smaller scale ...

Actually people ARE born more or less equal. Even the difference between male and female is not so great on a physiological level. As I said they're predispositions. And people who say "I've got no talent so I might as well settle for average", are just playing into that self-fulfilling prophecy. The Bachs, Beethovens, Jimmy Hendrix' and Stephen Hawkings just had the advantage of being taught their field from a very young age. And that's not talent, that's hard work again(maybe a little luck).

I'm not saying what you wrote is wrong. As you said these people had a calling, that they loved what they did and put every hour of every day getting better at it. Then that's what you're calling talent? In that case talent is just the will to work as hard as you can for something you're passionate about.

What I'm trying to say is that the only thing between being awful at something and becoming incredibly good at something is the will to put in the hours of work. The human brain is very flexible, even so flexible that it can 'rewire' itself completely after a traumatic event like an amputation of blindness.

Heck I'm getting carried away, but that's the psychologist in me speaking.

/rant

Grinder101 said:

Actually people ARE born more or less equal. Even the difference between male and female is not so great on a physiological level. As I said they're predispositions. And people who say "I've got no talent so I might as well settle for average", are just playing into that self-fulfilling prophecy. The Bachs, Beethovens, Jimmy Hendrix' and Stephen Hawkings just had the advantage of being taught their field from a very young age. And that's not talent, that's hard work again(maybe a little luck).

I'm not saying what you wrote is wrong. As you said these people had a calling, that they loved what they did and put every hour of every day getting better at it. Then that's what you're calling talent? In that case talent is just the will to work as hard as you can for something you're passionate about.

What I'm trying to say is that the only thing between being awful at something and becoming incredibly good at something is the will to put in the hours of work. The human brain is very flexible, even so flexible that it can 'rewire' itself completely after a traumatic event like an amputation of blindness.

Heck I'm getting carried away, but that's the psychologist in me speaking.

/rant

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Again man...that sill doesn't explain why people who put even more time in what they loved didn't get there!Or why archimedes was the first one and the only one to discover a previously inexistant subject called gravity when he didn't have any data whatsoever already present...He created the theory because he had talent! All the practice and thinking in the world weren't going to give you that!

And it's ok...It is a philosophical and psychological topic so we do have the right to get carried away in a debate ...

I think we're actually agreeing even though I was on a rant

Some people love what they do and that's what makes them great at it. Take me for instance, I did 2 years of ping-pong and went to practice every week, sometimes even twice a week but still I remained an average player. I see what you're getting at and I agree, you can't become ANYONE, but you can become someone.

If you were more intuitive you wouldn't have to ask us what we think.

Umm...What do you think ?

I also need to clarify what I said after reading the replies here (educated replies are always good to read)! After reading posts on this forum makes me wonder why most of the poker players online are such retards. When the discussions here prove that poker players are some of the brightest cats out there.

Anyways, when I talk about using intuition I'm not telling you to call a flush draw with one card to come if the odds arent there. Thats not intuition thats addiction!!! Addiction to drawing, and feel free to keep doing it because the money has to come from somewhere.

From my perspective it looks like semantics is the problem in this discussion. The intuition I'm talking about is a feel for the game based on past expereince (lots of table experience, burning through tonnes of hands) and your perception of the situation when it presents itself. And this might be called a rational process to some. But its a feel for the game that can help you make the right decision in the moment.

I was going to add some stuff, but you guys did all the heavy lifting on this subject for me! I enjoyed your responses very much - thanks.

Last week I was in decent shape in a Pstars mtt. Down to the last 100 out of 7k. I got moved to a new table and hit AQ on the BB. Got one raiser from MP and really thought he was just bluffing... in fact I knew it. I called him down with that AQ and he had Rockets.

Ouch

I had second pair on a fairly dangerous board earlier so checked river intending to call, but then the villain jammed. I thought about making the laydown for a while and ended up calling, he showed a missed flush draw which had picked up a low pair on the river Was so close to laying it down but managed to convince myself that my read was good.