Isn't Poker pure Gambling if.....

Thinker_145 · Mar 18, 2014

......2 players are equally good? Or do you think that 2 people cannot be equally good given the diverse range of skills that matter in poker?

Lets say there is a 6 max cash game where everyone is very closely matched, doesn't it pretty much come down to luck then?

Debi · Mar 18, 2014

They are still both using skill to win.

Thinker_145 · Mar 18, 2014

dakota-xx said:
They are still both using skill to win.

But there is only so much skill you can use in poker, you cannot eliminate the element of luck.

steveiam · Mar 18, 2014

The better player will always win over a long period of time.

tenbob · Mar 18, 2014

If 2 people are equally matched and play over a large enough sample size then luck is pretty much elminiated.

In that case, neither player can win, because no one will be able to beat the rake. So find a new table

doomasiggy · Mar 18, 2014

Thinker_145 said:
......2 players are equally good? Or do you think that 2 people cannot be equally good given the diverse range of skills that matter in poker?

Lets say there is a 6 max cash game where everyone is very closely matched, doesn't it pretty much come down to luck then?

Yes.

Karozi615 · Mar 18, 2014

your absolutely right, this is an ESSENTIAL observation to make in poker.
I always laugh at the poker after dark cash games with Patrik Antonius, Tom Dwan, Ivey, etc. These sessions are purely a chess match and the money just moves around the table.

Poker is predicated on exploiting less experienced and less skilled opponents. There is not table where everyone is totally equal, but there are certain tables that are more equal than others.
You can be the 9th worst poker player in the world and still make money if your at a full ring table with the 8 players worse than you.

fletchdad · Mar 18, 2014

Karozi615 said:
your absolutely right, this is an ESSENTIAL observation to make in poker.
I always laugh at the poker after dark cash games with Patrik Antonius, Tom Dwan, Ivey, etc. These sessions are purely a chess match and the money just moves around the table.

Poker is predicated on exploiting less experienced and less skilled opponents. There is not table where everyone is totally equal, but there are certain tables that are more equal than others.
You can be the 9th worst poker player in the world and still make money if your at a full ring table with the 8 players worse than you.

I sadly think I might belong at that table.....

vic75 · Mar 18, 2014

Sometimes it does come down too luck set over set how do you get away from a set and lose too a higher set i was playing a free roll on Poker Stars the other day and got 67 spades suited connector and hit a straight flush on the river beating AQ spades A high flush so luck is always factor

:smokin:

steveiam · Mar 18, 2014

vic75 said:
Sometimes it does come down too luck set over set how do you get away from a set and lose too a higher set i was playing a free roll on Poker Stars the other day and got 67 spades suited connector and hit a straight flush on the river beating AQ spades A high flush so luck is always factor :smokin:

Luck is a factor but if you played out that hand a 1000 times how many times would you hit your straight flush.. No where near as many times as the AQ flush.

TeUnit · Mar 18, 2014

there is no luck over the true long term

Thinker_145 · Mar 18, 2014

TeUnit said:
there is no luck over the true long term

And what is a true long term? I believe its longer than a lifetime.

For example does the AA vs KK situation ever end up balanced between 2 players? I really doubt.

Zin · Mar 18, 2014

Its all about figuring out the other player or players before they figure you out.

Debi · Mar 18, 2014

Thinker_145 said:
But there is only so much skill you can use in poker, you cannot eliminate the element of luck.

I didn't eliminate the element of luck.

strodawg · Mar 18, 2014

I don't believe anything is equal. I have been in and have pulled so many bad beats on online poker. I feel like I have to raise hard on JJ+ just to make sure where the good cards are and the pre-flop call isnt the irritating part. Its when the flop displays nothing out there. yet the 84 two pair on the flop you folded last hand cause 3 ppl shove all in when you in for 30 blinds on the preflop would have ended up knocking out four ppl that all shoved with AJ AK and 2-AQ's.

punctual · Mar 18, 2014

By your logic, if two pros were to play an extremely large number of hands they should be pretty much evenly stacked.....

But I don't believe this. I believe one player would come out on top. And that player, in my opinion, could be considered the better player. We address the luck factor by insisting on a certain (extremely high) number of hands played.

That's how I see it anyways....but in the short term, especially in headsup, ANYTHING could happen and that would not necessarily mean one player was better than the other.....

OzExorcist · Mar 19, 2014

tenbob said:
If 2 people are equally matched and play over a large enough sample size then luck is pretty much elminiated.

In that case, neither player can win, because no one will be able to beat the rake. So find a new table

^ this is exactly what I was going to say. In theory if you find two equally skilled players, and have them play for a long enough time, then rake would be the only winner.

punctual said:
By your logic, if two pros were to play an extremely large number of hands they should be pretty much evenly stacked.....

But I don't believe this. I believe one player would come out on top. And that player, in my opinion, could be considered the better player. We address the luck factor by insisting on a certain (extremely high) number of hands played.

That's how I see it anyways....but in the short term, especially in headsup, ANYTHING could happen and that would not necessarily mean one player was better than the other.....

That wasn't the question though - the question was what would happen if two equally skilled players played against each other. Phil Ivey and Phil Gordon are both pros, for example, but I think it's pretty clear that they're not equally skilled...

mapt02h · Mar 19, 2014

If two players are playing each other, in a heads-up scenario, skill is most predominant in this variant of poker in my opinion. Just the sheer fact that you have to play most of the hands you get, both in position and out of position means you need to be comfortable in playing postflop. Furthermore, as is known in HU poker, there rarely are cooler scenarios - when compared to other forms of poker - though obviously these do happen. In these cooler scenarios, luckier player wins big pots but, typically, the more skilled player wins. The one that's a better handreader and better player overall

for me, the most frustrating games in HU poker are against fish who you dominate the whole game, only to lose 2-3 flips against and they end up winning. Especially if they don't rematch...

peowulf · Mar 19, 2014

Well, the way I see it, no players are ever exactly equally good, because they are different human beings. Even if their skill is very very close, on any given day, one may feel better than the other and affect their game. Of course, luck plays a factor, but it's not the only one.
It's kinda like two world class tennis players going at it at the final. It could come down to luck, or physical and mental form on that day.

LgBassMan · Mar 19, 2014

tenbob said:
If 2 people are equally matched and play over a large enough sample size then luck is pretty much elminiated.

In that case, neither player can win, because no one will be able to beat the rake. So find a new table

What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?

tenbob · Mar 19, 2014

LgBassMan said:
What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?

Because I don't like paradox's I will say it explodes into a cloud of marshmallows, the marshmallow cloud however would be vast, and collapse into itself after only the chance to eat one. The singularity created would be unique, and designed to rake the bejesus out of anyone playing on the table.

After that marshmallow is eaten, its time to find a new table

LgBassMan · Mar 19, 2014

tenbob said:
Because I don't like paradox's I will say it explodes into a cloud of marshmallows, the marshmallow cloud however would be vast, and collapse into itself after only the chance to eat one. The singularity created would be unique, and designed to rake the bejesus out of anyone playing on the table.

After that marshmallow is eaten, its time to find a new table

...and that about sums it up.

torosanti012 · Mar 19, 2014

I believe the professionals play for several hours in order to minimize the element of luck as much a possible, then letting their school work for the money. If you look at just one hand luck is a big factor!

curtinsea · Mar 19, 2014

tenbob said:
If 2 people are equally matched and play over a large enough sample size then luck is pretty much elminiated.

In that case, neither player can win, because no one will be able to beat the rake. So find a new table

This is about spot on ^^^

Two equally skilled players simply have no 'edge' which doesn't mean the game is left to luck, it just means they will give and take hands fairly equally, and their long term results will be about even, with the house being the one to make money.

Conversely, two completely and equally unskilled players competing head to head would see luck's influence increased. If you are playing 'push and pray' (which I won't even call poker), then you have eliminated the skill moves, and left the game solely to chance.

rifflemao · Mar 19, 2014

tenbob said:
Because I don't like paradox's I will say it explodes into a cloud of marshmallows, the marshmallow cloud however would be vast, and collapse into itself after only the chance to eat one. The singularity created would be unique, and designed to rake the bejesus out of anyone playing on the table.

After that marshmallow is eaten, its time to find a new table

things_you_didnt_know_about_the_movie_ghostbusters_640_08.jpg

RIP, Mr. Stay Puft. :marchmell

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