Is it born or made?

Professional poker player, born or made? Obviously it is important to study a lot the game, strategies, bankroll and a great etc ... but, how much does talent influence this?

Born and made - we are born with certain attributes. These may or may not be developed as children. After childhood our abilities are locked in.

So if I have the potential from my genes & childhood experiences I may be able to learn to be a great poker player as an adult. But without that basis, it's just not happening. Sorry guys.

done

DerlyGR said:

Professional poker player, born or made? Obviously it is important to study a lot the game, strategies, bankroll and a great etc ... but, how much does talent influence this?

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done because nobody is born knowing rules and plays poker to be played well it has to be analyzed and studied every detail for a failure you end up losing a game a good place in the tournament so i think to be professional it depends on your knowledge

Short answer: Made

Long answer: Mostly made but having good genetics definitely helps.

Being able to learn faster, having a better memory to be able to memorize and integrate knowledge into your game brings you a huge advantage.
Additionally, Someone who can preserve their strategy in the heat of the moment, after they suffered a terrible losing streak are likely to perform better in poker.
The good news is poker is entirely a mental game. No one needs genetics to become a profession player, it just helps to speed the process along. Realistically, anyone with enough devotion to the game could theoretically become a professional. It's not like basketball, where anyone under 6 foot is immediately outcasted from the professional scene. Poker relies on the player's mind and, therefore, since you can always improve you mental capabilities, poker players are made.

Rowdy Greg said:

Born and made - we are born with certain attributes. These may or may not be developed as children. After childhood our abilities are locked in.

So if I have the potential from my genes & childhood experiences I may be able to learn to be a great poker player as an adult. But without that basis, it's just not happening. Sorry guys.

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Agreed.

Many on the CC forum (well poker players in general) assert hard work and application will get you to the top in poker. Unfortunately the reality is otherwise. Most here work hard and apply themselves and will enjoy varying degrees of poker success - but few will end up near the top.

That takes innate skill and a huge dollop of luck, with luck being a factor many do not what to recognize. But nearly every pro I have heard interviewed talks about a specific tourney turning point where they made a big score, could relax in terms of bankroll and then even swap pieces and attract backing to play at a higher level.

the professional player makes himself!

DerlyGR said:

Professional poker player, born or made? Obviously it is important to study a lot the game, strategies, bankroll and a great etc ... but, how much does talent influence this?

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I think it all depends on our desire and motivation. I believe that everyone can achieve their goal through hard and persistent daily work.

Born or Made?

I agree with the consensus, mostly made, but with a helping of innate (or pre-made) creativity. An empathy for others, helping you understand how you would play in their position, is also a useful attribue.

I think poker players are very intelligent people. This actually means that they are destined for a good game by birth. But... Even though someone is intelligent, it does not mean that he will be a good poker player. Without additional learning, work and discipline, it will hardly be a good player despite high intelligence.

DerlyGR said:

Professional poker player, born or made? Obviously it is important to study a lot the game, strategies, bankroll and a great etc ... but, how much does talent influence this?

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In any business, talent will not easily succeed, and poker is no exception!

I don’t believe you become top of the game without putting in a lot of effort so made for me

Apologies but had to return to this matter.

I am not aware of any proof poker players are smarter than the average person. In anyone can point to a study where the average poker player has been found to be more intelligent than the average person feel free to point us in that direction.

In fact what little study has been done suggests they are no different in terms of intelligence than any other subset of the population. The disconnect lies with the fact poker players like to perceive themselves more intelligent- a need to convince themselves they are engaging in something other than gambling.

There are, naturally, some extremely intelligent people in the upper echelon of card players. Which makes them no different than people who have succeeded in other fields – business, banking, science, medicine etc. -where inevitably intelligent people rise to the top.

As for the self-delusion (excuse the harshness) anyone can work to greatness in poker, no they cannot. You cannot teach intelligence as we all possess an innate IQ. If it is an average IQ then you could study mathematics, physics or chemistry for years and you are not going to emerge a brilliant scientist. Likewise, a certain ability within the arts. No matter the tuition you will not become a virtuoso.

You can produce a well educated average person, but the idea you can teach or learn superior intelligence or skills is not based in any reality. If true, there would be a factory of sorts where Einsteins and Picassos were emerging at the end of a production line. They aren’t.

Rowdy Greg said:

Born and made - we are born with certain attributes. These may or may not be developed as children. After childhood our abilities are locked in.

So if I have the potential from my genes & childhood experiences I may be able to learn to be a great poker player as an adult. But without that basis, it's just not happening. Sorry guys.

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I disagree with the born, Without any lets say physical/mental limitations that inhibit your ability to learn you can say anyone can be a great player by gaining the correct skills and knowledge. Some may have to work harder than others but it really relies on your desire to work and learn. LeBron was not born to be a great BB player he was born with the tools and developed the skills and knowledge to be the best. Had he never picked up a basketball he would have never been one of the best ie he gained the skills and knowledge was not born to be. Chris Fergusson is a very intelligent mathematician/poker player but was he born with either skill? No he had to gain the skill and knowledge. What I'm trying to say without any physical/mental limitations everyone has the ability to be the best whatever they chose to work hard to be. I look forward to your counter as I am very opinionate on this subject because I was a athletic coach and would always tell my less experienced players that the best on the team were not always the best, they once were just learning like you.

Hello ladies and gentlemen! Of course, a deep study of the game and experience allows you to play poker more productively, but you cannot acquire a vocation and talent by reading, I compare poker players with artists, you can draw well, but you will not be like Leonardo Da Vinci. Success to all. Best regards, Sergei.

it can be said that the person has a thousand and one abilities, but in my humble opinion, facing someone with luck, these thousand and one abilities will be useless, unfortunately.

roger perkins said:

I disagree with the born, Without any lets say physical/mental limitations that inhibit your ability to learn you can say anyone can be a great player by gaining the correct skills and knowledge. Some may have to work harder than others but it really relies on your desire to work and learn. LeBron was not born to be a great BB player he was born with the tools and developed the skills and knowledge to be the best. Had he never picked up a basketball he would have never been one of the best ie he gained the skills and knowledge was not born to be. Chris Fergusson is a very intelligent mathematician/poker player but was he born with either skill? No he had to gain the skill and knowledge. What I'm trying to say without any physical/mental limitations everyone has the ability to be the best whatever they chose to work hard to be. I look forward to your counter as I am very opinionate on this subject because I was a athletic coach and would always tell my less experienced players that the best on the team were not always the best, they once were just learning like you.

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Well ... since you asked. Reading your post I don't think we disagree at all. As you said,"he was born with the tools and developed the skills and knowledge to be the best". That's no different from "we are born with certain attributes. These may or may not be developed as children". Post childhood, it's scientific fact that our ability to learn decreases as we get older.

roger perkins said:

I disagree with the born, Without any lets say physical/mental limitations that inhibit your ability to learn you can say anyone can be a great player by gaining the correct skills and knowledge. Some may have to work harder than others but it really relies on your desire to work and learn. LeBron was not born to be a great BB player he was born with the tools and developed the skills and knowledge to be the best. Had he never picked up a basketball he would have never been one of the best ie he gained the skills and knowledge was not born to be. Chris Fergusson is a very intelligent mathematician/poker player but was he born with either skill? No he had to gain the skill and knowledge. What I'm trying to say without any physical/mental limitations everyone has the ability to be the best whatever they chose to work hard to be. I look forward to your counter as I am very opinionate on this subject because I was a athletic coach and would always tell my less experienced players that the best on the team were not always the best, they once were just learning like you.

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I still have to disagree. Chris Fergusson was born with an aptitude to maths as LeBron James was a natural athlete. Yes, education and practice honed those skills but they were there to begin with. You cannot take an average Joes and make them a Chris Fergusson or quite obviously, a LeBron James.

In fact, the way to have some perspective on this is to lower the bar so to speak. A person born with special talents (be they mental or physical) can rise to the top in whatever field they excel in. You can then indulge in the 'nature or nurture' debate.

However, what no body ever does is impose that same logic on the less inintelligent. Even if you gave a markedly unintelligent person the best education there would be zero expectation for them to become brilliant. People would accept their limitations. It would be regarded as the natural order of things. We are not born equal (mentally or physically) and therefore our potential in life is generally limited to one degree or another.

This may sound silly but I believe that the best poker player in the world is likely schlepping around some home game.
I also believe that the best singer in the world is being drowned out by the church choir that they sing with.
I further believe that the world's best Actor is doing 7-10 years for Fraud in some prison somewhere.

Poker is a game that you have to study, I don't think there is that "born to play poker"

DS3 said:

I still have to disagree. Chris Fergusson was born with an aptitude to maths as LeBron James was a natural athlete. Yes, education and practice honed those skills but they were there to begin with. You cannot take an average Joes and make them a Chris Fergusson or quite obviously, a LeBron James.

In fact, the way to have some perspective on this is to lower the bar so to speak. A person born with special talents (be they mental or physical) can rise to the top in whatever field they excel in. You can then indulge in the 'nature or nurture' debate.

However, what no body ever does is impose that same logic on the less inintelligent. Even if you gave a markedly unintelligent person the best education there would be zero expectation for them to become brilliant. People would accept their limitations. It would be regarded as the natural order of things. We are not born equal (mentally or physically) and therefore our potential in life is generally limited to one degree or another.

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Okay let take Chris who was born not with great mathematical skills but with a great mind. Had he concentrated on lets say medicine maybe he would have been just as good at that. My point is he was born with the ability or someone chose to focus him on mathematics and he gained the knowledge and skills to excel at that. I guess I am looking at it too literal. If you were born to be a poker player then with or without training you should be great at poker. What I am trying to say is anyone with a great mind can excel in anything they choose to. Poker like any skill including basketball yes you need the basics but its training, hard work and practice that makes you better. Einstein was a mathematical genius but I bet I could beat his ass at the poker table, until he had the time and knowledge to understand the game. Just my opinion.

P.S. I will argue all day that there is no luck in poker it is all statistical but everyone says you have to get lucky to win. Just another crazy thought I have not really relevant to this topic.

Rowdy Greg said:

Well ... since you asked. Reading your post I don't think we disagree at all. As you said,"he was born with the tools and developed the skills and knowledge to be the best". That's no different from "we are born with certain attributes. These may or may not be developed as children". Post childhood, it's scientific fact that our ability to learn decreases as we get older.

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Well I guess we agree if you say we are born with abilities but not specific skills. Like I said to DS3 I guess I am looking at it too literal.

I think that anyone can be talented if they are serious about business

Poker is balance and self-control!
Some have had it since birth. Others learn with discipline.

roger perkins said:

Okay let take Chris who was born not with great mathematical skills but with a great mind. Had he concentrated on lets say medicine maybe he would have been just as good at that. My point is he was born with the ability or someone chose to focus him on mathematics and he gained the knowledge and skills to excel at that. I guess I am looking at it too literal. If you were born to be a poker player then with or without training you should be great at poker. What I am trying to say is anyone with a great mind can excel in anything they choose to. Poker like any skill including basketball yes you need the basics but its training, hard work and practice that makes you better. Einstein was a mathematical genius but I bet I could beat his ass at the poker table, until he had the time and knowledge to understand the game. Just my opinion.

P.S. I will argue all day that there is no luck in poker it is all statistical but everyone says you have to get lucky to win. Just another crazy thought I have not really relevant to this topic.

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Essentially I agree -

What I am trying to say is anyone with a great mind can excel in anything they choose to.

Now Roger Perkins - don't get me started on luck haha!

I believe it is a mixture of the two.
But some people have more facilities in certain areas precisely because they were born with skills that favor them in the game. It is the same case for child prodigies.
But if these people do not strive to improve these skills, with the competitiveness that poker has today, I think that even they are left behind.