I've Reached My Threshold And Want To Move On

I've gone from a consistently losing (fishy) player a little more than a year and a half ago to an average break even (more or less) player as of 8 months ago. I feel really comfortable now making about 20%-40% average profit at the $50NL.

I've also been doing well at B&M $1 - $3NL* (with 3 exceptions).

I really want to try to make this a 2nd income. My last check from Bodog was $850 which I was able to make sitting at 2 $50NL tables for a straight 24 hour session. That $850 also is about a full paycheck from my current job.

Just want to know from those of you who do play professionally/for a living...

So For Online:

What tools should I have for playing online? I've never used PokerTracker or any "real" HUD. And honestly don't know how to read the numbers besides the VP$IP and Aggression Factor on the one cheapo one I used which I've never seen anyone mention before on this site. So suggestions would br appreciated. I would like it if the software is compatible with Carbon and Bodog.

And for B&M:

I know we see almost 60%-70% less hands/hr opposed to online but I personally enjoy a semi social environment opposed to a virtual social environment. My only issue with live play is playing with the other regulars, *(here's the exception)I particularly don't like playing with 3 people in general who will go all the way to the river with a small draw whether it be gutshot/flush/open ended these three guys always suck out.

I could bet 4x the pot and they would still call to see the next card. These are obviously players I should be making money off of but am not and unlike them I do not have a seemingly infinite bankroll and unlike them I understand pot odds, how to play draws properly, fold equity, reverse psychology, I don't play and cross my fingers like these guys do.

When I see these players should I just not play? I mean I honestly have flopped a top set of kings with 2 spades on the board and before I even bet, this one occurance I flipped my cards over so one of these idiots could see what I had, and he didn't care. Big raise on the turn because he still missed his draw and then of course the board doesn't pair for me, but instead gives him a 7 of spades for his flush he completed with a 2s 5s. I don't know how to handle these players... they are worse than Micro $2NL players.

So any advice with the live play is appreciated as well.

Sean Pilgrim said:

When I see these players should I just not play? I mean I honestly have flopped a top set of kings with 2 spades on the board and before I even bet, this one occurance I flipped my cards over so one of these idiots could see what I had, and he didn't care. Big raise on the turn because he still missed his draw and then of course the board doesn't pair for me, but instead gives him a 7 of spades for his flush he completed with a 2s 5s. I don't know how to handle these players... they are worse than Micro $2NL players.

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When you see these players, you should be fighting for seats at their table and praising the gods that they want to call you down while knowingly (or not) taking the worst of it. The immutable laws of math say they're going to give you more money in the long run than they take when sucking out. It sucks to lose to these guys, but it will be practically impossible not to win from them overall if you keep playing them. Think of it this way: Right now THEY have YOUR money, and you need to let them give it back.

I'm not a professional player so no real advice there, but for online play Holdem Manager is arguably the best tracking software, and it has a built-in HUD. Useful HUD stats other than VPIP and AF are percentages for preflop raise, 3-bet, fold to 3-bet, steal, and fold blinds to steal.

roundcat said:

When you see these players, you should be fighting for seats at their table and praising the gods that they want to call you down while knowingly (or not) taking the worst of it. The immutable laws of math say they're going to give you more money in the long run than they take when sucking out. It sucks to lose to these guys, but it will be practically impossible not to win from them overall if you keep playing them. Think of it this way: Right now THEY have YOUR money, and you need to let them give it back.

I'm not a professional player so no real advice there, but for online play Holdem Manager is arguably the best tracking software, and it has a built-in HUD. Useful HUD stats other than VPIP and AF are percentages for preflop raise, 3-bet, fold to 3-bet, steal, and fold blinds to steal.

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Well TriggaLos had it right he wants his 80/20's to win 80% of the time and his 60/40's to win 60% of the time... these guys have zero skill, but 100% luck.

You are right though, they have paid me off before but, they have made many more suck outs on 5th street than I have made playing the hands with them.

Sean Pilgrim said:

Well TriggaLos had it right he wants his 80/20's to win 80% of the time and his 60/40's to win 60% of the time... these guys have zero skill, but 100% luck.

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The really excellent news is that luck changes, but math doesn't. Since I've been playing more Omaha than hold 'em lately I'm becoming accustomed to getting it in with small advantages, so large advantages seem like a huge gift.

roundcat said:

When you see these players, you should be fighting for seats at their table and praising the gods that they want to call you down while knowingly (or not) taking the worst of it. The immutable laws of math say they're going to give you more money in the long run than they take when sucking out. It sucks to lose to these guys, but it will be practically impossible not to win from them overall if you keep playing them. Think of it this way: Right now THEY have YOUR money, and you need to let them give it back.

I'm not a professional player so no real advice there, but for online play Holdem Manager is arguably the best tracking software, and it has a built-in HUD. Useful HUD stats other than VPIP and AF are percentages for preflop raise, 3-bet, fold to 3-bet, steal, and fold blinds to steal.

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I always see it as they have my money and I'll get it back plus interest.

It seems like you hae been working hard and have finally got a good system going, its always good to kep playing but just make sure you dont decide to trade that job in for a full time poker player unless youre making serious dough

One of the things you mentioned about your game is intriguing. " I know about fold equity, reverse psychology". My suggestion is to never make sophisticated plays against these players. It doesnt work, all they see are their two cards and that's it. They don't think about what you have or may have and that is good.

Just keep getting your money in when ahead and you will take their money. Variance will be large though, as their 30% hands will win 3 out of ten times. These are gamblers, not poker players and a 3 out of 10 shot is worth it to them for the rush. Just remember you will win 7 out of those ten, make them count.

dufferdevon said:

One of the things you mentioned about your game is intriguing. " I know about fold equity, reverse psychology". My suggestion is to never make sophisticated plays against these players. It doesnt work, all they see are their two cards and that's it. They don't think about what you have or may have and that is good.

Just keep getting your money in when ahead and you will take their money. Variance will be large though, as their 30% hands will win 3 out of ten times. These are gamblers, not poker players and a 3 out of 10 shot is worth it to them for the rush. Just remember you will win 7 out of those ten, make them count.

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Right there was a couple of quotes I kind of remember:

"Never bluff A Donkey"
"Making sophisticated plays against unsophisticated players, yields unwanted results."

And Pac: Never would I ever want to play for an actual living. I applaud those that can grind all day and come out WAY ahead every day. But, I'm only good at most 4 - 5 hours out of the day unless I'm running really hot. But those of you that play for a living, my hat is off to you 100%.

And those of you that invest $3.30 into a +500 player field and make that $3 into $146 you guys are my inspiration 100%.

My most recent MTT cash was in 5th place in a $1+.20c 45 player SnG on Bodog. I won a whopping $4.89 after 3 hours. But technically speaking that's more than 300%(err... 400%??) profit. Just wish I could do that every day at high stakes.

roundcat said:

The really excellent news is that luck changes, but math doesn't. Since I've been playing more Omaha than hold 'em lately I'm becoming accustomed to getting it in with small advantages, so large advantages seem like a huge gift.

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I'm only scared of Omaha due to the set over set factor that happens ever so frequently. I don't know how to count outs due to the 2 extra cards, I don't know how to read opponents, I cant put them on a hand at all in Omaha, so besides play chips never really dived into the whole omaha, 7 card stud, and razz games. Although I do believe they each can help your game out tremendously if you have a good grasp on the concepts of each game type.

I don't know if this answers any of the questions you had but it might be of some help.

It sounds to me that you just need to play more. Keep grinding it out and cashing out and moving up and see how things work out after playing a lot more hands. The whole part about not wanting to be in a game where people call you down with draws is a flag that you don't have a lot of experience. I understand that you don't want people sucking out on you, but no good cash game players would ever choose to sit at a table with good players over bad.

I'm mainly a live player but have used a few HUDs in my limited online experience. You are at a disadvantage if you don't have one. Download Poker Tracker its free and see if you like it.

white_lytning said:

I don't know if this answers any of the questions you had but it might be of some help.

It sounds to me that you just need to play more. Keep grinding it out and cashing out and moving up and see how things work out after playing a lot more hands. The whole part about not wanting to be in a game where people call you down with draws is a flag that you don't have a lot of experience. I understand that you don't want people sucking out on you, but no good cash game players would ever choose to sit at a table with good players over bad.

I'm mainly a live player but have used a few HUDs in my limited online experience. You are at a disadvantage if you don't have one. Download Poker Tracker its free and see if you like it.

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It's not that I don't want to sit at a table with players who look at poker the same as roulette or blackjack and totally think luck is the way to play. IMO, these 3 guys are the luckiest of lucky. A6 suited get a back door flush every time, they always call a big pre-flop raise with cards like 36o if the flop is 2 K 4, 5 A 7, Even if it's 6 A 5 they'll call it down and almost every time hit their retarded draw.

As far as PT3 goes, I can't get it to work with Bodog and Carbon, my 2 favorite poker rooms to play on. Mainly because you play the same fish over and over and over again and they just keep reloading and donating to my BR.

Any HUDs with support for Bodog?

A6 suited get a back door flush every time, they always call a big pre-flop raise with cards like 36o if the flop is 2 K 4, 5 A 7, Even if it's 6 A 5 they'll call it down and almost every time hit their retarded draw.

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This is exactly what I mean in my original post. If A6 is making a back door flush every time you have not run it enough times to let the numbers work out. Same with 36o. They don't hit every time. And even better for you is those flops don't come every time.

You just need to see more hands and get more experience.


Play another 50 or 100k hands and come back to this thread to see how much your mind has changed. Might make you laugh a bit.

I believe HoldemManager supports Bodog. I like that better than PT3 anyway, although they're not that different in functionality.

If you want to take your game to the next level, start asking yourself this question: "Based on what I know about this player and his tendencies, what should my overall gameplan versus him be?" The better you become as a player, the more detailed your insights about his game (and his exploitable tendencies) will be, and thus the more detailed your gameplan.

I think the pivotal level of thinking for a break-even (or slightly winning) player to reach in order to become a really sharp player is when you not only have a gameplan for the table but for each specific player at it. You can beat most tables up to and including the midstakes by just playing a game well-suited for typical tables at those stakes, but in order to crush the games you'll do well to adjust to each and every opponent on each and every table.

Don't overdo it, though. Start small, perhaps with the "is this guy tight or loose" question and then taking the appropriate measures. Then you start combatting "tight preflop, loose on the flop" and "loose preflop, fit-or-folds the flop" style players, then "will call with any piece of the flop including monsters, and will only raise big draws" etc. etc.

Playing for a living is a tough thing. I would just keep doing what youre doing and continue to build up that roll. If your personal bills are taken care of, then It should be easy for you to look toward making a living playing poker.

Come play on FTP.

I got Hold Em Manager and Bodog Hand Grabber for HEM. Working great so far. Hang out for like 20 hands and only play premiums. Then I'm able to play the players. It is benefiting me already. A little more than 200 hands in and I've already tripled my BR. (Don't worry it's an expendable $55 for testing purposes) Sitting on $164.50 now in less than 3 hours.Usually something like that would take me a whole day for that kind of turn out.

I can't believe I ever played with out this!!!

F Paulsson said:

I believe HoldemManager supports Bodog. I like that better than PT3 anyway, although they're not that different in functionality.

If you want to take your game to the next level, start asking yourself this question: "Based on what I know about this player and his tendencies, what should my overall gameplan versus him be?" The better you become as a player, the more detailed your insights about his game (and his exploitable tendencies) will be, and thus the more detailed your gameplan.

I think the pivotal level of thinking for a break-even (or slightly winning) player to reach in order to become a really sharp player is when you not only have a gameplan for the table but for each specific player at it. You can beat most tables up to and including the midstakes by just playing a game well-suited for typical tables at those stakes, but in order to crush the games you'll do well to adjust to each and every opponent on each and every table.

Don't overdo it, though. Start small, perhaps with the "is this guy tight or loose" question and then taking the appropriate measures. Then you start combatting "tight preflop, loose on the flop" and "loose preflop, fit-or-folds the flop" style players, then "will call with any piece of the flop including monsters, and will only raise big draws" etc. etc.

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QFexcellent post. This is how I want to approach the game when I start to play again.