Live game cheating problem. Advice needed.

Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 14, 2008
Total posts
6,236
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #51
IcyBlueAce said:
You can't countfiet stickers that change from game to game, jeeze I thought some of this stuff was obvious.

So lets get this straight, your plan is to purchase 10,000 stickers for every game, sit down, peel the old ones off and a fix the new ones... and this would be done for each game?

Do you think its a realistic plan?
 
IcyBlueAce

IcyBlueAce

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Total posts
787
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #52
Stu_Ungar said:
So lets get this straight, your plan is to purchase 10,000 stickers for every game, sit down, peel the old ones off and a fix the new ones... and this would be done for each game?

Do you think its a realistic plan?

I said have the players do it at the start of each game.

I also never said this was the best solution, just a very cheap solution as asked.
 
jordanbillie

jordanbillie

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Total posts
3,753
Awards
3
Poker Chips
191
Casino Coins
0
  • #53
I have played at a tournament with stickers on the chips and it was terrible. Like WV said, you cannot stack them properly. People were miscounting stacks because some stacks of 20 were actually 19, but they still lined up looking like 20.

From the OP it sounds like the TD is not counting the chips after every tournament, which is a must. He needs to have different chips for the SNG/side games. What is done is done, you all just have to watch out for the cheaters.
 
RoyalFish

RoyalFish

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Total posts
240
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #54
IcyBlueAce said:
I said have the players do it at the start of each game.

I also never said this was the best solution, just a very cheap solution as asked.

This whole sticker idea (which I don't like) rests on the theory that players can't smuggle chips in and play them because they won't have the right stickers. Do you see why giving a population of players, some of whom cheat, the right stickers before the game starts renders the stickers useless?

RF
 
PayMeh

PayMeh

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Total posts
44
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #55
FWIW the sticker idea was made in jest.. I was going to go as far as suggesting peeing on them all, spraying them down with lumenol, then mounting a few black lights around the tables.. =D Just don't get the lumenol on the tables.. I doubt you would want to know how many suspicious outlines you'd find on the felt.. =D lolol
 
Grossberger

Grossberger

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
May 12, 2009
Total posts
2,066
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #56
PayMeh said:
FWIW the sticker idea was made in jest.. I was going to go as far as suggesting peeing on them all, spraying them down with lumenol, then mounting a few black lights around the tables.. =D Just don't get the lumenol on the tables.. I doubt you would want to know how many suspicious outlines you'd find on the felt.. =D lolol

I'm still laughing at your signature ROFL.
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Total posts
4,547
Awards
1
Poker Chips
1
Casino Coins
0
  • #57
IcyBlueAce said:
I said have the players do it at the start of each game.

I also never said this was the best solution, just a very cheap solution as asked.

Read the next quote! Stickers are not the cheapest solution because it would be an ongoing cost. They wouldn't fix anything no matter who put them on (i.e. the next quote below, and the fact that the guy could just put them on his chips that he brought). And, well, that's all that needs to be said. It won't work... get over it.:rolleyes:

RoyalFish said:
This whole sticker idea (which I don't like) rests on the theory that players can't smuggle chips in and play them because they won't have the right stickers. Do you see why giving a population of players, some of whom cheat, the right stickers before the game starts renders the stickers useless?

RF

Grossberger said:
I'm still laughing at your signature ROFL.

Me too! That made me chuckle out loud!:D:D:D
 
buckster436

buckster436

Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Total posts
15,125
Awards
2
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #58
we had a similar problem at the bar years ago, a certain guy would always cashout 1st. then we ended up short of chips, we knew who it might be, so next time he played, we made him cash out last, and the chips were short, we all grabbed the guy and searched his pockets, he had about $20. in chips in his pocket, so he got the beating of his life and we threw him out of the bar bleeding all over, to sum it up, he never played with us again and we were never short of chips again, dont think its exactally against the law, but in my bar we were the law, and we all lived happily after,, its a true story, our slogan was > you Cheat, you get Beat, and by some pretty big guys,,oh, a Baseball Bat works too,, buck:D
 
PC69

PC69

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Total posts
7,629
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #59
buckster436 said:
we had a similar problem at the bar years ago, a certain guy would always cashout 1st. then we ended up short of chips, we knew who it might be, so next time he played, we made him cash out last, and the chips were short, we all grabbed the guy and searched his pockets, he had about $20. in chips in his pocket, so he got the beating of his life and we threw him out of the bar bleeding all over, to sum it up, he never played with us again and we were never short of chips again, dont think its exactally against the law, but in my bar we were the law, and we all lived happily after,, its a true story, our slogan was > you Cheat, you get Beat, and by some pretty big guys,,oh, a Baseball Bat works too,, buck:D


Theres a moral to this story of bucksters... Dont mess with retired truck drivers that like ice cream.. There usually the biggest nutjobs out there ;) :D
 
Leo 50

Leo 50

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Total posts
1,285
Awards
1
Poker Chips
3
Casino Coins
0
  • #60
buckster436 said:
we had a similar problem at the bar years ago, a certain guy would always cashout 1st. then we ended up short of chips, we knew who it might be, so next time he played, we made him cash out last, and the chips were short, we all grabbed the guy and searched his pockets, he had about $20. in chips in his pocket, so he got the beating of his life and we threw him out of the bar bleeding all over, to sum it up, he never played with us again and we were never short of chips again, dont think its exactally against the law, but in my bar we were the law, and we all lived happily after,, its a true story, our slogan was > you Cheat, you get Beat, and by some pretty big guys,,oh, a Baseball Bat works too,, buck:D


Very nice, I like that solution!
WTG Buck

:cool:
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Total posts
4,547
Awards
1
Poker Chips
1
Casino Coins
0
  • #61
Leo 50 said:
Very nice, I like that solution!
WTG Buck

:cool:

Cool, problem solved! We'll all pitch in and get Buck and a couple of his buddies to go there and open up 18 wheels of whoop ass on them! Then, just for fun, we'll let his buddies put 10,000 stickers on his kahones while Buck eats ice cream.:D
 
buckster436

buckster436

Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Total posts
15,125
Awards
2
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #62
pokerchild69 said:
Theres a moral to this story of bucksters... Dont mess with retired truck drivers that like ice cream.. There usually the biggest nutjobs out there ;) :D
lol,:D , if i told you guys everything went on it that bar i`d be typing for a year,:eek: , buck:)
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Total posts
4,547
Awards
1
Poker Chips
1
Casino Coins
0
  • #63
Haha, yeah! I owned one of the largest karaoke databases around here and spent 8 years working in bars as a K.J./Bouncer. I've determined that there are two worlds in every town... the real world and the bar world.
 
Weregoat

Weregoat

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Total posts
665
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #64
My eyes started hurting so I didn't read the past 8 or so posts, but um... A few posts up somebody suggested counting chips whenever somebody cracked a table, or a table was added to the event. Suppose you start with 3k in chips, well 9 handed if it gets down to 5 people before you break the table, there should be 27k in chips there.

Another thing, OP mentioned he had his suspicions about who could or couldn't be doing it. Well, put 2-3 of those at the same table, and when you break the table and you're over your expected amount, that narrows it down a little bit.

Also, if you break hourly/every two hours, you can recount then. I've played in a few of tournaments (where I'm from, they're ussually held at a restaurant with a lot of people who have a large community of common friends, all with an interest in poker, and the event will be held in a restaurant or something, that's been closed for the day because the owner wanted to have a tournament), so I know what the atmosphere is going to be like, players dealing to players, it makes sense.

But the following holds true:
1. Side games need to use different chips, period. I think you mentioned being in Ireland, but in the US at least you can get a decent little dinky chipset, 2 decks of cards, a dealer button, 5 dice, and a carrying case for $20. You can rent those out to have them pay for themselves to justify the cost. ($1 per player in a 9 handed cash game, you are 90% there after the set goes out twice.)

2. The chips need to be locked up when they're not in use. If you are worried about the integrity of the staff, you might try counting chips before and after the event. You catch one perp, they'll squeal. Especially once they realise their job is threatened.

**BEFORE DOING THIS, YOU SHOULD LOOK UP YOUR LOCAL LAW, OR SIMPLY ASK A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL, IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS IS ILLEGAL. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS, BUT THIS WOULD WORK WHERE I'M FROM**
3. You mentioned that where you are you're not legally allowed to search your patrons. Well, here is what I suggest. Set up a table on the inside of the door that all patrons must go through. You inform them that it's come to your attention that a regular at the tournament MAY be cheating, and that if they are going to play, they need to volunteerily open up their bag/empty their pockets. You are not forcibly searching them, however by having them turn their pockets inside out and letting you poke in their bag, you are assuring them a safer game.

Also, your perp(s) is(/are) going to get to the table, and find out what it's for, and refuse. Of course, there are hidden pockets in bags (my backpack the army issued me has one, and you'd think they'd want me to be able to hide as little from them as possible). Even a small amount of 1k chips can make a difference, especially later in the tournament.

You might just change out the larger denominations of chips, or switch their denominations around. If I were to be a dishonest person, and the tournement I frequented (and cheated at) used the same chips every week for their 1k/5k chips, I'd try and get my hands on a few of those and try to add them to my stack on the down-low. They'd be in spot not likely to be checked when I went through your security table (tucked into my socks under my jeans, perhaps), and as I went to the restroom on breaks I'd move them to where they'd be easier to access (jacket/pants front pocket).

Well, if my 5k chip was worth 5k last week, and worth some random amount the next week, and I had to go through a security table (as weak as it is), I'm much less likely to grab a few 5k chips this week. Think about it. Preventative measures are just that.

Since you're doing this on the regular, you might increase the tournament fee a couple bucks each tournament (what's the difference between $33 and $35?), or skim a small amount off the prize pool, to buy multiple sets of chips, as well. I don't have custom chips (yet. Once I'm out of the service I'll have a room set aside for my weekly poker nights and have custom chips and maybe even a custom table, should my poker winnings be able to afford them, or should I be getting paid stupid good after my education), so I can't tell you how much they cost. But you take $40 more out of the prize pool (maybe first place will notice $7 less, second will notice $5, 3-4th will notice $4, 5-8th will notice $3, etc.) you'd be surprised how quick that adds up.

Anyway, that's enough wall of text crits for me tonight.

- Goat
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,224
Awards
1
Poker Chips
56
Casino Coins
0
  • #65
Update, the game went ahead last night, with several players taking refunds after the TD decided to run ahead as usual, we ran with 12 players, with 13K stacks.

Side games no longer have access to the tourney chips. I think its too little to late, the TID refused to publically address the issue publicaly and several players got refunds almost straight away, the 3 suspects played as usual, but their usual loud personalities were almost non-existant.

Game looks dead tbh, trust is gone, and thats fine, its not my game and all i could do was offer advise. The chip sticker issue was a good idea, and what we done in the end was use a "magic marker" system for all the chip that were in use. There was 15K chips introduced from 12 players this week. They will be down to the 3 that i suspect before the new year imo.

Game over.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Total posts
7,594
Awards
1
Poker Chips
12
Casino Coins
0
  • #66
The prob I see with stickers is that you'd need a sticker for each denomination to prevent people from moving a sticker from a $5 chip to a $500 introduced chip.

I'd consider screenprinting something onto each chip. It's cheap.

What would be really cool is to put somerthing *hidden* on each chip. Secretly mark all the chips in play so that they glow under a black light. Then surprise the field with a chip check part way through the game.
 
PurgatoryD

PurgatoryD

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Total posts
736
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #67
tenbob said:
There was 15K chips introduced from 12 players this week.

Sweet... it's getting narrowed down. Please keep us updated. This should get good! :)

-Dave
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 14, 2008
Total posts
6,236
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #68
SavagePenguin said:
The prob I see with stickers is that you'd need a sticker for each denomination to prevent people from moving a sticker from a $5 chip to a $500 introduced chip.

I'd consider screenprinting something onto each chip. It's cheap.

What would be really cool is to put somerthing *hidden* on each chip. Secretly mark all the chips in play so that they glow under a black light. Then surprise the field with a chip check part way through the game.

But what good will this do?

The chips will disperse as they are brought into play.

Do you simply ban the guy who has the most no-glow chips? even though he says he just won them in a big pot?

Do you ban the guy who he won the pot off? even though he says his chips were legit so those particular chips couldn't have come from him?

When you find the counterfeit chips, what do you actually do? Some people will be lying when they say they didn't realise the chips in their stack are counterfeit, but the vast majority of players who say they have no idea where these counterfeit chips came from will be telling the truth.
 
Organize a Home Poker Game Top 10 Games
Top