Are MTT's realy worth it?

thejuanupsman said:

You don't have to consistently make the final table to consistently make a profit. My average field size is 3000+ and my roi is well above 5%.

Click to expand...

I think the OP was making a point of where he wouldn't place very often. I'm saying that it's hard to place consistently. And about the ROI, I was reading another tread and got confused, I meant to say that I would be very hard to place in the "final table money" 5% of the time. Of course if you're a good MTT player, a 5% ROI wouldn't be out the question at all.

Yes they are worth it. All you need is luck, experience and a lot of time.
If you dont have too much time, try MTTs with about 100-200 players.
I dont recommend turbo tourneys, they are too fast and they are just about gambling.

Mtt crush my soul.Playing for hours dodging like 4k donks,make it to the final 3tables or so get AA cracked by q10vs big big stack an profit 7xbi.Damn that hurts.

BelgoSuisse said:

What is your average ROI on MTTs?

People typically don't realize how small the margins we're exploiting are. I really don't know much about MTTs, but for SNGs an ROI of 5 to 10% is really excellent beyond micro-stakes, and that means that in order to make a five-figure income, you need to invest a combined buy-in that is typically a six-figure amount.

Even if you had a 100% ROI at MTTs, if you play a $5 buy-in for 5 hours, your long-term salary would still be only about $1/hour.

Click to expand...

Although I have detailed notes including every MTT I have entered, I don`t have them collated in such a way that I can easily extract that info. My primary purpose in keeping notes is to identify profitable regular tournies and profitable strategies to use in each tourney and blind structure. So, my notes are narrative documents rather than spreadsheets.

I can say that in 2009 I played in approximately 550 tournies. I am not sure of the exact total number, since I do not bother tracking the little games (generally CC buyins) that I play just for laughs.

Counting only the large tournies of which I do have full detail, I reached 26 final tables and had 57 other cashes. I achieved a net profit of $14,774 from large tournies.

I don`t have an easy way of calculating the total buyins. I play tournies anywhere in the range from $5 to $100 buyin, wherever I can find overlay or soft opposition or both. If we said that the average buyin might be $15, then my ROI would be considerably greater than 100%. It`s worth bearing in mind that a tournament player`s results are immensely skewed by a few big scores. Typical among last year`s final tables were one where I won $2000 for an $11 buyin, and another where I won $3500 for $22 buyin. I expect if I were to tot it all up, the 26 final tables must account for all my profit and the rest would be a break-even proposition at best.

The length of time spent is not nearly so great as you might think. A tourney is only a four or five hour marathon if you go deep and make a big score, in which case the time invested is a minor consideration. Where I am unsuccessful, I will usually be out in the first hour.

Someone made a comment elsewhere in this thread about tournament grinders not risking their BR, and that is 100% correct. I have an online BR of more than $10k and never put more than 1% of it into a single tourney. It is necessary to have that sort of margin in order that one can be entirely relaxed through the inevitable long periods of mediocrity between the big successes.

most people lose money find the game you are proffitable at with that said theres nothing like having all the chips in front of you 1 time i won the thursday nt tourney stayed the night at foxwoods got up played the early and won again picked up $8000 for the effort I was in poker heaven

I play huge field mtts all the time. Average buy-in $1, average profit $1, I have made about 1500$ on stars this way.
But, i dont even want to think in terms of what my hourly rate would be.
10c an hour maybe.

BelgoSuisse said:

What is your average ROI on MTTs?

People typically don't realize how small the margins we're exploiting are. I really don't know much about MTTs, but for SNGs an ROI of 5 to 10% is really excellent beyond micro-stakes, and that means that in order to make a five-figure income, you need to invest a combined buy-in that is typically a six-figure amount.

Even if you had a 100% ROI at MTTs, if you play a $5 buy-in for 5 hours, your long-term salary would still be only about $1/hour.

Click to expand...

True, but if you play 5nl for 5 hrs and with 10BB/100 hands result you would make 30 BB (typicly 60 hands/hr), ie 3$.
That is 60c/hr.

And there is one flaud with your calculation. All the times when you bust out early. The average time is proabably around 2hrs. So 2.50$/hr compared to 0.60$/hr.
Well I dont know, what would you choose?

only_bridge said:

True, but if you play 5nl for 5 hrs and with 10BB/100 hands result you would make 30 BB (typicly 60 hands/hr), ie 3$.
That is 60c/hr.

Click to expand...

Sure, but you can play 24 tables at 200nl at any time of the day and make a very substantial income, while you can't multitable MTTs with significant buy-ins. There are not enough of those running.

BelgoSuisse said:

Sure, but you can play 24 tables at 200nl at any time of the day and make a very substantial income, while you can't multitable MTTs with significant buy-ins. There are not enough of those running.

Click to expand...

True, also MTTs demand a higher level of concentration on each table. Rising blinds and varying chipstacks mean that the nature of the game shifts and changes as it proceeds and a single error can knock you out and end your prospects. Few MTT players can successfully play more than 3 or 4 at a time. Personally, I find 2 works best for me.

They are worth it if you can mentally handle sitting there for 4 hours. It's a great way to hit a big cash if you're disciplined enough to last.

I personally have better results from MTT's than from cash games. I'm not sure what it is but I always seem to have bad luck (AKA play worse) when I play cash games.

I pretty much built my bankroll from cashing a fairly large MTT early in my playing days. That was November 2008 and I have been playing on the winnings ever since (after cashing out 80% of my winnings from that tourney). I have playing with that ever since.

Now if I could learn how to make better picks on sports and learn how to play cash games, I'd be set ;-)

I need to search for some cash game threads here to sharpen my skills.

BelgoSuisse said:

Sure, but you can play 24 tables at 200nl at any time of the day and make a very substantial income, while you can't multitable MTTs with significant buy-ins. There are not enough of those running.

Click to expand...

Actually GLADLY I would like to correct you here... what you're saying here is just not true. If you were to follow the path of any of the MTT regs. online, you will see that alot of them are playing upwards of 30mtts per day (20 perhaps more typical).

To play a few hours in an MTT and then 'not cash', I never look at this as being a waste of time - - it is just part of the big picture, part of the journey, part of the reality of being a tournament player. When I go busto getting it in on a 5bet shove as an 83% fav. & then go busto just barely ITM (or before the bubble) I don't think "Wow.. what a waste of time, I made zero for the past 3hrs." Instead I look at more as, "Another 3hrs. of time invested in experience. Now what hands do I feel I would like to review." (if any).

It's the same for playing 100NL (or 200NL). One doesn't just load up and jump onto those limits online unless they just feel like donating to others. No... as I'm sure you know, one has to put in the time first. tbh.. putting in 10k+ hands at 5NL &/or 10NL isn't really that appealing to me. I like playing cash tables (occassionally, especially live) but I much prefer tournament play. I also don't find any great appeal in playing 100K in hands to break even except for rakeback (which I've noticed is what many can hope to only expect to gain as there aren't alot of players who are making boatloads of cash in low stakes online (of course some are... just not many from what I've noticed).

Many look at poker as "what's my hourly rate". Personally that's not my thing (especially with being a tournament player). Wouldn't expect that to be the deal with most SNG players these days either (considering the #1 ranked sng player who 20tables the $16's only nets. $300/day and that's with playing 200 sng's per day.

Egon Towst said:

True, also MTTs demand a higher level of concentration on each table. Rising blinds and varying chipstacks mean that the nature of the game shifts and changes as it proceeds and a single error can knock you out and end your prospects. Few MTT players can successfully play more than 3 or 4 at a time. Personally, I find 2 works best for me.

Click to expand...

Any of the MTT regulars on Fulltilt are playing a dozen at a time. Try doing a player search on some of the names you see on the final tables.
Typically, MTT players who are playing the highest buyins are doing so at a bunch of the sites. I can log onto TITAN and see the same guys I see running deep in the $100 rebuy on Fulltilt are the guys who are deep in the $322 on TITAN. I know they play many at the same time... I talk with them on IM and watch them play.

...i defintely am a mtt players...thats what i see poker as mostly...i think the guarantees are the best, cause th e value for money is amazing...i think the trick is bubble play or just after it..i think being aggro at bubble is prime, to an extent of course..but after bubble,i completely tighten up..i find so many people are just relieved to have cashed, and pissed off or tired they jsut go all in hoping for double up...40 minutes of thi and most players are gone...patience is optimal though...in one tourney i had a great cash, i folded 83% of hands in first 2 hours...

Poker Orifice said:

I know they play many at the same time... I talk with them on IM and watch them play.

Click to expand...

In that case I stand corrected. I do not myself know anyone who successfully multi-tables large numbers of MTTs. Your circle is clearly wider than mine.

Cool thread, Poker and Eggy and luckfor I am totally behind your style and reasoning. My ring stats go south, MTTs are always heading north. Patience my friends...

I'm gonna get my hand in some MTTs in the near future - I haven't done one since I was back in the states - made top 60 but got my money in good and got done dirty. Barely made a little more than double my buy-in. Quite frownyface.

But I guess that's the nature of the beast. I still had fun - even if it did eat up a whole Sunday I could have been out beligerencing.

Poker Orifice said:

Any of the MTT regulars on Fulltilt are playing a dozen at a time. Try doing a player search on some of the names you see on the final tables.
Typically, MTT players who are playing the highest buyins are doing so at a bunch of the sites. I can log onto TITAN and see the same guys I see running deep in the $100 rebuy on Fulltilt are the guys who are deep in the $322 on TITAN. I know they play many at the same time... I talk with them on IM and watch them play.

Click to expand...

Workin it, man u r an inspiration. :shakehand

i do love playing mtts alot but i would say that the beats and the varience is so horrible some times but when u do cash and especially the final table it is always worth it

i do love to sit and play poker for hours on end so if your up for a long game and hope of the win but if u dont make the money just say to yourself that i played my best but run into some bad luck it happens

mtts are not like cash games results wont show by the end of the week or month...sometimes you wont see positive till the end of the year.

thy are def worth it tho

For me, MTT offer the big risk, big reward. For me, it also lessens the chance of collusion like in a 1 table sit n go, or a 1 table cash game. The fact that players are constantly moving all the time make it harder for this to happen.

Aboslutely, yes they are worth it. I used $1.20, 27 person MTT SNG's to build my roll for awhile until I switched over to cash games. I still play in the occasional 2,000 man tourney, but I'll play cash games for 4-5 days straight before I try my luck @ a tourney where I'll probably place in the money to at least get my buy-in back. Recently placed in top 40 twice and got 22nd last night. Man, that hurt lol, but it added a decent amount to my roll. So, I say occasionally for the huge MTT's and more religiously for the smaller 27 person.

For me, they are 100% worth it. I used to play S&G's with with a small bankroll-say $50 and I would find myself reloading far too often for my liking. However, since switching to FT from Stars, I've played almost exclusively MTT's and some big cashes and nice final tables finishes (Daily Dollar after 10 hours and playing from 1.15am through til 10.30am being a particular highlight) and I've probably made around $1000 profit in the last few months, which I'm more than happy with.

I've no idea of my profit/hour or how many I've played or the percentage I've cashed in. I would have no idea how to go about it. Being new here, perhaps it's wrong to simply go gung ho into tournaments that look nice and just plan to play well and hope you finish nice and high up.

My personal opinion on large MTT 1000+ entrants is that you will need at least one of the following to final table: (Along with above par poker play):

1. Good luck
2. Not have any bad luck or very little
3. Get an above average amount of quality starting cards


Without one of the 3, it would be almost impossible to final table.

If you just play solid TAG and mix in some semi bluffs, etc, you can almost always cash in them though, unless you have really bad luck, ex. KK running into AA, etc.

I think mtt can be very rewarding if you have the right strategy and enough patience. When i start my day playing poker I either say I'm gonna grind out the sngs or play mtt all day one or the other depending on what kind of mood I'm in. I think mtt are a lot more rewarding when you do well but the inconsistancies are a lot higher than sngs. Who knows right now you could be on the down swing of your mtt and you could take a good place in the next one you play and turn your losing record into a profitale record