Negreanu String Bet at WSOPE?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Four Dogs
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Looks fine to me... other guy is just whining. both hands were moving at the same time almost and with the verbal statement he clearly meant to raise.

besides... it's not like he put in the call, then the other dude started to do something and THEN daniel put in the raise... he hadn't reacted at all yet and that's the main reason a "string raise" is bad.
 
I think David was trying to be cute. Even though I think he meant to raise it should be done in a way that no one has to guess the meaning.
 
This is why I love Daniel.... he's like "yeah lets call the floor". I'm going to say "Up Scope" next time I want to raise.
 
I think he intended to raise. Clearly he was toying with Deeb. I think I will try the up scope to in tonight's CC Fr.
 
Negreanu is right.
Other guy is complaining.
Jamie Gold can play cards blind and still win the pot. (Not to mention Gold's mind manipulation)
 
Four Dogs said:
I've never been to impressed with ESPN's WSOP coverage. It's spotty and filmed more like a reality show than a sporting event.
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Poker isn't a sport. :albertein
 
The actual rules say you have to say the word "Raise". That said it's clear what DN meant. Ruling could have gone either way but I'd personally rule in DN's favor here just because the intent was obvious. That said DN needs to quit getting cute and just say raise. It's not that hard and it's what the actual rules say you have to say.
 
FWIW I agree, Negreanu's intention was obviously to raise in this particular hand.

But I think focussing on his intention in this particular hand is missing the bigger picture because Deeb actually has a point. Say the following scenario plays out:

Live tournament, nine players at the table, 100-200 blinds with no ante. Folds around to the button:

Button: says "Raise" and pushes forward 350
Small blind: folds
Big blind: grabs a bunch of chips in each hand, says "It's business time" and puts the chips from one hand (equal to a call) on the table
Button: (before the big blind takes any further action) "OK, I'm all in"
Big blind: "Whoa whoa whoa, I never said raise"

Sure, the button screwed up by acting before the big blind had finished doing whatever he was doing. But you can see the point - not having a clearly defined standard for a verbal declaration opens the door for angle shooting. Does "pound you back" or "it's business time" or "up periscope" really mean raise, and can a player be held to it if they change their mind before they put the chips in the pot? I'm not sure that they can which is why it might be dangerous to allow the behaviour. In the above situation, if the big blind had said "raise" rather than "it's business time" he'd have to at least put in enough chips for a minimum raise. In this case, maybe he gets away with only losing the chips required to call.
 
i personally feel that it should have been ruled as a call..i think although it was kinda obvious he wanted to raise..he didnt say raise, and he didnt put extra chips out with his first action...i think, had he pt say 800 chips out and have the 300 chips with his raise then it would definitley be a raise...but, he cold be sneaky and do that to see deebs immediate reaction...dont think he would do that since hes a pro and its his profession..but many people could do this...
also
in a sense he is lucky he is so famous...because i think hed have really pissed me off..i dont like the way he acted, thought it was very smug, and saying "i know more than you Im a pro"...
 
OzExorcist said:
scenario plays out:

Live tournament, nine players at the table, 100-200 blinds with no ante. Folds around to the button:
Button: says "Raise" and pushes forward 350
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and just for funsies cause its the mood im in...id recommend changing the 350 to 400 🙂//.. im in work in an hour for the next 10 even though its my day off, hence im in the mood im in to point this hehe


lolzzzzzzz
 
Ok he made a string bet with his hands, but he did make a statement that he was going to raise. I dont think it was a bad ruling, but I do think that they should make it a little more clear as to what they will allow a player to say to acknowledge what they are doing.
 
OzExorcist said:
FWIW I agree, Negreanu's intention was obviously to raise in this particular hand.

But I think focussing on his intention in this particular hand is missing the bigger picture because Deeb actually has a point. Say the following scenario plays out:

Live tournament, nine players at the table, 100-200 blinds with no ante. Folds around to the button:

Button: says "Raise" and pushes forward 350
Small blind: folds
Big blind: grabs a bunch of chips in each hand, says "It's business time" and puts the chips from one hand (equal to a call) on the table
Button: (before the big blind takes any further action) "OK, I'm all in"
Big blind: "Whoa whoa whoa, I never said raise"

Sure, the button screwed up by acting before the big blind had finished doing whatever he was doing. But you can see the point - not having a clearly defined standard for a verbal declaration opens the door for angle shooting. Does "pound you back" or "it's business time" or "up periscope" really mean raise, and can a player be held to it if they change their mind before they put the chips in the pot? I'm not sure that they can which is why it might be dangerous to allow the behaviour. In the above situation, if the big blind had said "raise" rather than "it's business time" he'd have to at least put in enough chips for a minimum raise. In this case, maybe he gets away with only losing the chips required to call.
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So why would the guy ship before he gave sizing anyway? Even if instead of "business time" he said "raise", insta-shipping would let him change what likely would be a bigger raise to simply a minraise. I just don't see how it can be an angle where if someone is going to act after a raise they will want to know how much they raised first right?
 
gnk2727 said:
Ok he made a string bet with his hands, but he did make a statement that he was going to raise. I dont think it was a bad ruling, but I do think that they should make it a little more clear as to what they will allow a player to say to acknowledge what they are doing.
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Still, I don't see this as a string bet, since as I recall a string bet is defined as going back to your stack for more chips. DN picked up chips in both hands, then in a forward motion with both hands dropped chips from one, then the other, while also making his "pound you back" comment -- I don't see how that could be considered anything but an intended raise.
 
This seems to come down to a letter of the rules vs spirit of the rules situation. Negreanu clearly intended to raise, so he wasn't angle-shooting. He was just being Negreanu.

However, if the rules are written to allow raising without saying some form of the word "raise", it begs a couple of potentially significant questions. One is how much leeway players are given in terms of what they can say and still mean raise plus how long a delay is okay between putting in the call amount and the raise amount.

The other is how to do so consistently across the field and the entire wsop.

I'm not a big fan of codifying everything, but maybe the applicable rule should be re-written before situations arise that aren't as easy to resolve correctly.
 
lol Shrimp29
David? I only see a Sean and Daniel, unless you're talking about David williams 😀
 
Who the F*** is Shaun Deeb????

This was hillarious to me. Some chump of a nobody thinks he's Billy-badass because he is sitting in the main evene of the WSOPE (without a chance in hell of making an impact on this tourney) next to one of the greatest players and ambassadors of this game the world has ever seen, (not to mention a guy who couldn't be a nicer dude) Daniel Negreanu, and he wants to call the floor over to try and enforce a "string raise" on Negraenu because he used semi-unconventional verbage in his raise? Negreanu's intenentions were brutally obvious in his actions and his words, and what had me in stitches is that this guy legitimately thought that the floor might actually come over and rule against the face of tournament poker. What a jackass, this nobody Deeb, I hope people who sit with this guy at tables in the future take their opportunities to rub it in to this guy just what a moron he is. Even if you believe you may be right in the argument, why even make it against a titan of the game like Daniel? I've got news for you guy, he will get more favorable treatment from a floor than you will, because he is a more favorable player! He's a huge part of the reason people even show up to these things! Lebron and Kobe get more foul calls in their favor than most, and there's a reason, they fill the seats! They make TV ratings! Daniel is a Lebron or Kobe of this game, I'd think twice before next time you try and call out someone of his status on the felt for something that you aren't even totally right about...Slapdick.​
 
ryanmac23 said:
This was hillarious to me. Some chump of a nobody thinks he's Billy-badass because he is sitting in the main evene of the WSOPE (without a chance in hell of making an impact on this tourney) next to one of the greatest players and ambassadors of this game the world has ever seen, (not to mention a guy who couldn't be a nicer dude) Daniel Negreanu, and he wants to call the floor over to try and enforce a "string raise" on Negraenu because he used semi-unconventional verbage in his raise? Negreanu's intenentions were brutally obvious in his actions and his words, and what had me in stitches is that this guy legitimately thought that the floor might actually come over and rule against the face of tournament poker. What a jackass, this nobody Deeb, I hope people who sit with this guy at tables in the future take their opportunities to rub it in to this guy just what a moron he is. Even if you believe you may be right in the argument, why even make it against a titan of the game like Daniel? I've got news for you guy, he will get more favorable treatment from a floor than you will, because he is a more favorable player! He's a huge part of the reason people even show up to these things! Lebron and Kobe get more foul calls in their favor than most, and there's a reason, they fill the seats! They make TV ratings! Daniel is a Lebron or Kobe of this game, I'd think twice before next time you try and call out someone of his status on the felt for something that you aren't even totally right about...Slapdick.​
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I'm assuming this is wind up troll post from a 1 post newbie.
 
ryanmac23 said:
This was hillarious to me. Some chump of a nobody thinks he's Billy-badass because he is sitting in the main evene of the WSOPE (without a chance in hell of making an impact on this tourney) next to one of the greatest players and ambassadors of this game the world has ever seen, (not to mention a guy who couldn't be a nicer dude) Daniel Negreanu, and he wants to call the floor over to try and enforce a "string raise" on Negraenu because he used semi-unconventional verbage in his raise? Negreanu's intenentions were brutally obvious in his actions and his words, and what had me in stitches is that this guy legitimately thought that the floor might actually come over and rule against the face of tournament poker. What a jackass, this nobody Deeb, I hope people who sit with this guy at tables in the future take their opportunities to rub it in to this guy just what a moron he is. Even if you believe you may be right in the argument, why even make it against a titan of the game like Daniel? I've got news for you guy, he will get more favorable treatment from a floor than you will, because he is a more favorable player! He's a huge part of the reason people even show up to these things! Lebron and Kobe get more foul calls in their favor than most, and there's a reason, they fill the seats! They make TV ratings! Daniel is a Lebron or Kobe of this game, I'd think twice before next time you try and call out someone of his status on the felt for something that you aren't even totally right about...Slapdick.​
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We aren't talking about fouls in NBA basketball.

I think Deeb knew Daniel raised and just wanted to see the flop really bad.

He hated that Daniel raised. Just a classic case of a tilting player.

salim271 said:
^This, I wonder what would have happened if it was Phil Hellmuth against Deeb...?
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Deeb would have called.

🙂
 
ryanmac23 said:
This was hillarious to me. Some chump of a nobody thinks he's Billy-badass because he is sitting in the main evene of the WSOPE (without a chance in hell of making an impact on this tourney) next to one of the greatest players and ambassadors of this game the world has ever seen, (not to mention a guy who couldn't be a nicer dude) Daniel Negreanu, and he wants to call the floor over to try and enforce a "string raise" on Negraenu because he used semi-unconventional verbage in his raise? Negreanu's intenentions were brutally obvious in his actions and his words, and what had me in stitches is that this guy legitimately thought that the floor might actually come over and rule against the face of tournament poker. What a jackass, this nobody Deeb, I hope people who sit with this guy at tables in the future take their opportunities to rub it in to this guy just what a moron he is. Even if you believe you may be right in the argument, why even make it against a titan of the game like Daniel? I've got news for you guy, he will get more favorable treatment from a floor than you will, because he is a more favorable player! He's a huge part of the reason people even show up to these things! Lebron and Kobe get more foul calls in their favor than most, and there's a reason, they fill the seats! They make TV ratings! Daniel is a Lebron or Kobe of this game, I'd think twice before next time you try and call out someone of his status on the felt for something that you aren't even totally right about...Slapdick.​
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Shawn Deeb is a nobody? Okay, he's a well known on-line pro, but that's beside the point. Are you suggesting that Negreanu should get preferential treatment because of his status, or that less well known players should just keep their mouth shut and be happy to bathe in the glow of poker royalty? He payed the same entry fee into this tournament as everyone else and as such he has the same right to utilize the floor manager and yes, he SHOULD expect fair and even deliberation. However you interpret Negreanu's intent or the FM's ruling you cannot disagree that the rules as written should be applied evenly to all participants reguardless of notoriety or lack thereof.
 
dmorris68 said:
Still, I don't see this as a string bet, since as I recall a string bet is defined as going back to your stack for more chips. DN picked up chips in both hands, then in a forward motion with both hands dropped chips from one, then the other, while also making his "pound you back" comment -- I don't see how that could be considered anything but an intended raise.
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There are three ways to make a valid raise:

1 - Without saying anything, and in a single motion, put out the exact amount of chips that constitute the call and your raise. Note that this can't be done with a single oversize chip (putting out a single 1000 chip, intending to raise to 1000, when the bet to you is 350 for example) as it'll be ruled a call.

2 - Verbally announce that you're raising, put out the amount required for the call, then in a single subsequent motion put out the amount you're raising by.

3 - Verbally announce that you're raising, and state the amount you're raising too. You're then obliged to raise to that amount, but you can return to your stack as many times as you need to in order to complete the bet.

This is why there's an argument over whether "pound you back" counts as Negreanu verbally declaring that he's raising: if it counts as a declaration then his bet falls into the second category and it's not a string bet. If it doesn't constitute a verbal declaration, however, then it falls into the first category and it's a clear string bet.

You don't have to go back to your stack for it to be a string bet, you just need to make the bet in multiple motions. Like I said above, pros do it all the time, they're just rarely called up on it.
 
Tough call, I knew what he meant when he said pound you back. That being said the way he put the chips in was a little shaky. He didn't double dip though, he had the chips in his hands. They were two different hands though. I don't think they would have let me get away with it though.
 
Any activity where you sit on your ass and drink beer isn't a sport.
 
crowhui said:
poker is classified as sport man...
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2371224505_208c8589a1.jpg


I guess chess and checkers is a sport too? What about monopoly?
 
ryanmac23 said:
This was hillarious to me. Some chump of a nobody thinks he's Billy-badass because he is sitting in the main evene of the WSOPE (without a chance in hell of making an impact on this tourney) next to one of the greatest players and ambassadors of this game the world has ever seen, (not to mention a guy who couldn't be a nicer dude) Daniel Negreanu, and he wants to call the floor over to try and enforce a "string raise" on Negraenu because he used semi-unconventional verbage in his raise? Negreanu's intenentions were brutally obvious in his actions and his words, and what had me in stitches is that this guy legitimately thought that the floor might actually come over and rule against the face of tournament poker. What a jackass, this nobody Deeb, I hope people who sit with this guy at tables in the future take their opportunities to rub it in to this guy just what a moron he is. Even if you believe you may be right in the argument, why even make it against a titan of the game like Daniel? I've got news for you guy, he will get more favorable treatment from a floor than you will, because he is a more favorable player! He's a huge part of the reason people even show up to these things! Lebron and Kobe get more foul calls in their favor than most, and there's a reason, they fill the seats! They make TV ratings! Daniel is a Lebron or Kobe of this game, I'd think twice before next time you try and call out someone of his status on the felt for something that you aren't even totally right about...Slapdick.​
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is one of the best levels of all time
 
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