Never Raising With A K Again

yourguynow · Mar 27, 2009

Key advantage is not just that you "may" hit the high pair but that you hold the high card if no one pairs, plus the best kicker if someone else happens to have an ace. Of course, this is more critical with less players so getting them to fold early due to you higher bet pre flop is where your advantage grows

RichKo · Mar 27, 2009

I didnt see this one above, so...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.986% 47.67% 00.31% 78367080 513624.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.014% 51.70% 00.31% 84986856 513624.00 { 22 }

so this to me says 22 better

coming from my AQ to 22 loss

CostyBigRoyal09 · Mar 27, 2009

I always go all in with AK .... and many times we won the jackpot without any emotion

aliengenius · Mar 27, 2009

oh the ignorance.

aliengenius said:
I posted these thoughts in another thread, but I think they are worth repeating here:

The advantages of AK are mostly in it's preflop value:

1. Fold equity. This is the biggest advantage of AK. For me it is almost alway a REraising hand preflop. For you to take advantage of this, you MUST play it aggressively (your opponent must fold). Small pairs can't really call you for fear that you have a bigger pair when you play it aggressively. If you do get called, even by something like QQ, you are still only a slight dog.

2. Pre-flop dominating hand. This is mostly applicable against donks who will call you with Ax soooooded. Inversely, you are only really dominated vs AA or KK (and you have about 30% vs KK).

3. Post flop your top pair always has top kicker when you hit.

Obviously when your opponent goes all in he has neutralized AK's biggest advantage as he can no longer fold. Against two random cards that don't include either and ace or a king you are not that big of a favorite with five to come, as other posters pointed out. But you don't ever really want to be calling an all in with very many hands (AA and KK excepted)-- YOU want to be the one doing the raising or pushing.

Just to look at it another way, let's compare AK to a small pair, say 55.

AK is a dominating hand. IF your raise is called you are (most likely) either:

1. way ahead (vs. a weaker ace)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

With 55 you are (most likely) either:

1. way behind (vs. a bigger pair)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

See the difference?

Faltersnatch · Mar 27, 2009

I was playing in a MTT Sit & Go and were down to the last 105. Top 90 get paid. First I'm in the button position and I get AK of clubs, I raise 4 times the blind. bkinds are 750 and 1500. I have 80 000 approx in chips. Small blinds folds and Big blind pushes all in for 62000 more. ARRRRG I call, big bling is sitting with pocket aces. Flop comes up 10, J, 9 of clubs. Turn card comes 10 of diamonds and the river card come A of hearts.

kidkvno1 · Mar 27, 2009

Roller said:
Big Slick
I have been burnt so many times.
I feel your Pain.

After a while I realized:
(O Wait here comes the bashing the messenger type posts)
As with all the Top hands they are just starting hands.

I have realized the error of my ways.

Over and Over I should repeat in my head..
They are just great preflop starting hands.
Nothing more.

Ok I may not even believe my own words.
But it may be true.
You can Lose Large amounts when don't hit.

You can win small amounts when they hit.

Please don't over play them.

Good Luck with AK.

true.. i am ready to fold them if i miss, and some times i may push allin, thats when i am short stacked.... Though i don't see AK all that much.

Velutha · Mar 27, 2009

CostyBigRoyal09 said:
I always go all in with AK .... and many times we won the jackpot without any emotion

1) Hand 1 of tournament
2) Blinds 50/100 Starting Stack of 30,000
3) Dealt AK UTG
4) Always go all in
----4A) Win 150 from the blinds
--------4A.1) You win "the jackpot without any emotion"
--------4A.2) You have table lead with 301.5 BB
----4B) Called and dominated
--------4B.1) You lose the jackpot with plenty of emotion as sadness ensues

CrossCrucificio · Mar 28, 2009

Good Ole Big Slick, you can't live without them, no matter how much heartache it has caused you in the past. Although one of the good starting two cards to have, it can eventually also be your demise in a game. I like to play AK's passive aggressively. I would live and die by this most of the time at an all-in preflop.

unlucky79 · Mar 28, 2009

I always play ak with caution and usually dont raise but 2.5 to 3x bb with it. Most of the time I usually miss with this hand. In late position on the button with no callers I limp trying to trap with this hand but yeah you have to raise it up some to better your odds and eliminate limpers in the pot. Best of luck!!!

Tenessee123 · Mar 28, 2009

AK

I see people over play AK time after time after time. The hand is a good hand to raise with but i see so many that cant get away from it on flop.

Four Dogs · Mar 28, 2009

TheUndertaker said:
In one tournament I got A K four times in a row I raised all four times to 3xBB and I didn't hit an A or K in that four turns could you believe that,and the turn just after I got 10 8 flop was A K A what THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT!Just today in a couple of SitnGo's I got A K like 5times and still didn't hit anything but the turns just after A's ands Ks came I will call with A K but Never Raising Again.

And this is why I don't post anymore.

imthed3vil · Mar 28, 2009

whoa!

yah peopel that go snap all in with AK i believe arent that great of players, i can understand goign all in w/ the hand if it s late in the tourney and you're a lowstack, but usually i just raise a little or smooth call, AK online isnt liek the AK at real tables, online it wont hold up as it would sitting at a real table! go find my bad beat! i just posted it, you think AK is something, go read what i posted!

pkrook · Mar 28, 2009

Don't be...

discouraged, AK is not too bad a starting hand, although you do see online that it very often loses to a small pair, it still a better hand than 23 or 52.
I fold them sometimes myself preflop depending on the scenario.

Roller · Mar 28, 2009

pkrook said:
discouraged, AK is not too bad a starting hand, although you do see online that it very often loses to a small pair, it still a better hand than 23 or 52.
I fold them sometimes myself preflop depending on the scenario.

AK loses against a small pair online all the time.
Well not always true.
If I have the Small Med or Large pair then AK wins online almost all the time.

Crazy but True.......

dropdead1 · Mar 28, 2009

TheUndertaker said:
In one tournament I got A K four times in a row I raised all four times to 3xBB and I didn't hit an A or K in that four turns could you believe that,and the turn just after I got 10 8 flop was A K A what THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT!Just today in a couple of SitnGo's I got A K like 5times and still didn't hit anything but the turns just after A's ands Ks came I will call with A K but Never Raising Again.

I feel your pain with this one. I also hate AK and what freaks me is that you hit hard and some chop takes you out with 2 prs after calling your huge raises with shyte like A2 or A3....its often feels like no one values a kicker anymore!

I just try to keep focused by going back to my starting hand charts and keep practising patience (my biggest weakness).

Four Dogs · Mar 30, 2009

Okay. Let's clear something up. You don't raise hands like AK, AQ etc. because you EXPECT to pair the flop. You raise because you EXPECT that your hand is the best hand at the moment and you EXPECT it to remain so after the flop vs a limited number of opponents. That's why a continuation bet is almost manditory with a big broadway hand after a preflop raise. Most times a CB will take the pot whether or not you connect with the flop, if and only if you raised preflop. If you only bet the flop when your hand improves you are missing out on alot of value. This goes for cash games as well as tournaments.

You seem to be forgetting that the flop will connect with your opponent only 1/3 of the time as well. If he checks to you, that's a good sign that he whiffed out and a good sign that your AK is still good. DON'T let it go to waist. And don't expect to much from any preflop hand including AA. It's just 40% of a hand. If you have the best hand, then just raise for cryin' out loud. Think of it as just increasing the blinds so as not to give the rest of the table a discount.

lewis010 · Mar 30, 2009

TheUndertaker said:
In one tournament I got A K four times in a row I raised all four times to 3xBB and I didn't hit an A or K in that four turns could you believe that,and the turn just after I got 10 8 flop was A K A what THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT!Just today in a couple of SitnGo's I got A K like 5times and still didn't hit anything but the turns just after A's ands Ks came I will call with A K but Never Raising Again.

well it will be better for you to raise a good amount of chips to avoid playing the hand with lots of players with averige and bad preflop hands...
also the odds of hitting ace or king in the flop isnt very high cause you only have 6 outs, and maybe some other players folded hands like a4 off or k5, so you shouldnt be worried at all cause you dont get an ace or a king in the flop in 5 times..... it happens, not very frequently, but it happens...

evildoesit2003 · Mar 30, 2009

AK is pretty to look at but if you get called on it you will lose more times than you will win for sure. I have been raiising on it a few times but usually get called and end up with nothing so I am thinking just limp with it and if you hit fine if not you havent wasted a lot of chips.

glworden · Mar 30, 2009

RichKo said:
I didnt see this one above, so...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.986% 47.67% 00.31% 78367080 513624.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.014% 51.70% 00.31% 84986856 513624.00 { 22 }

so this to me says 22 better

coming from my AQ to 22 loss

Hey Rich,
I think you're making a mistake in your thinking here. All these stats are saying is that 22 is a slight favorite over AK in a race. Any pair is a slight favorite over AK in a race.

But if you hold 22, you're certainly never very far ahead. You're way behind against any pair, and in a pretty even race against any two overcards, not just AK. Alien Genius explains this very well.

If you were playing with your cards up, AK might be wise to fold against 22. But you never really know what the other guy has. The power of AK comes from playing it strong pre-flop and dominating any pocket pair if you hit, as well as representing a better hand with any C-bet. And you will hit on the flop about 1 time in 3. The guy who said 1 time in 8 has his stats wrong.

And those who say you can't play it because you have to fear AA or KK: My God, why play poker at all if you're going to fear a monster on every hand?

What are you going to do with 22? Unless you hit a set, you don't have anywhere to go with it.

Any time you hold a pair, it increases the odds that there is another pair at the table.

These "AK sucks" threads come around with every generation of new members, a few times a year, and if you'd really listen to the wise advice available here, you'd rid yourself of that nonsense quickly. It still amazes me how many people think this kind of issue is just a matter of opinion and if they just keep saying it, it might be true.

Listen: AK is clearly a better hand to have than 22. Yes, you have to know how to play it. Listen to Sindri and AG.

Gary

Tenessee123 · Mar 30, 2009

AK

AK is a strong hand but its not that strong. One if it isnt suited it value goes down even more.

Never Raising With A K Again

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