PLaying first HAND!

when people exclaim that i take offence too it and call me childish yes i do. hurry up and hit the post count limit for the day

x2486 said:

I know WVH will call me an idiot, but here goes...

Sorry, WVH, but your stats mean nothing without a comparison of the value of posting in the BB vs posting in the cutoff. Of course the blinds always lose money, but to everyone who says that you should never post early, please answer this: Suppose you could play at a table where you alone could post your blinds in the dealer and cutoff position while everyone else had to post their blinds as usual. Would you play at that table? Don't you think that having position in the blinds would make a big difference in your return?

Now check the numbers. If you post as usual at a full ring, you're paying 1.5 BB to see 9 hands. This is exactly the same price per hand if you post 1 BB in the cutoff to see 6 hands. So if you're paying the same price/hand, wouldn't you rather have that money on the table in the cutoff?

I don't believe any of the crap about when I post affecting my cards, and I would never post after the cutoff, but if it was practical for me to just post 1 BB from the cutoff each round and skip the blinds and the button, I suspect it might be worth it. Yes, you're missing out on the most profitable position, but you're also skipping the two least profitable positions. If anyone wants to refute this with some real stats, I'll be happy to reconsider, but in order to do that they'd need to have played a lot of hands where they posted in the cutoff, and if they're already doing that, then they probably don't disagree with me.

Click to expand...

You're 100% wrong but since you do it post your stats and I'll tell you how many bb/100 you're losing because of posting outside of the blinds.

Also of course we'd all play at a table where we got to post our blinds in position BUT what you're doing when you post early is posting 1 bb in position AND 1.5 bb out of position. It's a losing play.

WVHillbilly said:

You're 100% wrong but since you do it post your stats and I'll tell you how many bb/100 you're losing because of posting outside of the blinds.

Click to expand...

I doubt I have enough hands to prove or disprove this myself since I mostly play SNG's and MTT's. That's why I only said I suspected it might be worth it, but I'll see what I can find. If you have some reason for saying I'm 100% wrong other than it's just what you think, I'd be glad to hear it.

WVHillbilly said:

Also of course we'd all play at a table where we got to post our blinds in position BUT what you're doing when you post early is posting 1 bb in position AND 1.5 bb out of position. It's a losing play.

Click to expand...

What you're paying for when you post the blinds is the ability to see hole cards up until the next bb. If I post 1 bb in position and then leave the table after 6 hands, then all I've done is pay .1666 bb per hand for six hands, but I got to pay that blind with good position. If you wait and pay the sb and bb and then leave the table after 9 hands, then you've still paid 1.666 bb per hand, but you had to pay those blinds in the worst positions. Please explain how that is a winning play when you just told me that you would rather pay your blinds in position if you could?

staying at a table for 9 hands is a losing play imo. but i'm sure you will nicely point out how i am wrong

Tyler69 said:

when people exclaim that i take offence too it and call me childish yes i do. hurry up and hit the post count limit for the day

Click to expand...

I think you need to grow up. And stop acting like a top dog because you have 900+ posts. That is nothing. And post count means nothing. I have 9k+ posts on multiple other forums so I know exactly what kind of person you are, you are a troll. Now it would be stupid of me to make enemies having just arrived, because no one likes a cocky shit new to the forums, so I'm done in this thread.

Tyler69 said:

staying at a table for 9 hands is a losing play imo. but i'm sure you will nicely point out how i am wrong

Click to expand...

You may be right, but that has nothing to do with whether or not posting a bb in the cutoff is a good play or not. If staying at a table for 9 hands is a losing play, then why would anyone play Rush where you stay for just one hand?

I indicated that I did not think it was practical to leave a table every 6 hands, but that I thought it would be profitable to be able to skip the blinds and dealer positions and just post 1 bb in the cutoff. I don't have any proof of this at the moment, but I haven't seen any proof to the contrary yet - just what seem to be knee-jerk reactions stating that "it's bad" without really giving any serious thought to the matter.

I would say that in the end I doubt that it makes much difference to anyone, since it can only occur once each time you join a table. But if it turns out to be a mistake not to post the big blind in the cutoff, then woudn't it be nice to know about a leak that was so easy to fix?

x2486 said:

I doubt I have enough hands to prove or disprove this myself since I mostly play SNG's and MTT's. That's why I only said I suspected it might be worth it, but I'll see what I can find. If you have some reason for saying I'm 100% wrong other than it's just what you think, I'd be glad to hear it.



What you're paying for when you post the blinds is the ability to see hole cards up until the next bb. If I post 1 bb in position and then leave the table after 6 hands, then all I've done is pay .1666 bb per hand for six hands, but I got to pay that blind with good position. If you wait and pay the sb and bb and then leave the table after 9 hands, then you've still paid 1.666 bb per hand, but you had to pay those blinds in the worst positions. Please explain how that is a winning play when you just told me that you would rather pay your blinds in position if you could?

Click to expand...

Ok here is the single biggest factor as to why waiting to post is better. If I wait to post I pay the same as you do for 9 hands. You play 6. 2 of my hands are from terrible position BUT 1 of my hands is from the BTN. Your way you never get to play the BTN. You're never guaranteed to act last. I always have the BTN and at least some of the time I can get the right to always act last from the BB.

So same price to play for you to get fewer hands AND no BTN. If that's not enough to convince you, I got nothing else.

thread is turning into a flame war lol The Genera1, sent u pm so we can be "adults" about it but i was talking to yotalover and not u which is why i "trolled' you i guess cuz it wasn't even about you

Edit: and x2486, dude wouldn't that be a pain to leave every 6 hands? seems hardly worth it just from that sense of it

WVHillbilly said:

You're 100% wrong but since you do it post your stats and I'll tell you how many bb/100 you're losing because of posting outside of the blinds.

Click to expand...

Suppose we use your stats for the moment with a few slight modifications:



These are your numbers, but I've removed the blinds and button positions because they are not a factor if you post a bb in the cutoff. Your stats showed that you had a profit of $10,818.60 from the big blind before subtracting the blinds. Do you think you might be able to improve that value to $12,493.15 if you were paying your blind in the cutoff? Because that's all you would have to do in order to have the same BB/100 profit that you have now. If you don't think you could do that, then I guess you're right, and posting early is the dumbest thing you can do. If, however, you think you might be able to do even better than that, then you have a leak that you might want to plug.

Tyler69 said:

thread is turning into a flame war lol The Genera1, sent u pm so we can be "adults" about it but i was talking to yotalover and not u which is why i "trolled' you i guess cuz it wasn't even about you

Edit: and x2486, dude wouldn't that be a pain to leave every 6 hands? seems hardly worth it just from that sense of it

Click to expand...

I don't think he's actually say he would leave every 6 hands, just using the extremes to try to prove his point. It makes comparison easier. Same idea applies though even if he stays for a thousand hands.

BTW if we were talking about a live game I would absolutely post from the CO (BTN if allowed) for a couple of reasons but mainly because of the time it takes to play a round in a casino. Online it's seconds but live it can be 20 minutes.

Tyler69 said:

thread is turning into a flame war lol The Genera1, sent u pm so we can be "adults" about it but i was talking to yotalover and not u which is why i "trolled' you i guess cuz it wasn't even about you

Edit: and x2486, dude wouldn't that be a pain to leave every 6 hands? seems hardly worth it just from that sense of it

Click to expand...

Dude, for the third time, I clearly stated that it would not be practical to leave every 6 hands, and I never advocated actually doing it. I also would not advise changing the game to allow it (skipping the blinds and dealer position, and just posting a bb in the cutoff) because that would probably ruin the game by discouraging any play from the blinds.

But that still has nothing to do with whether it is a theoretically winning or losing play. It has been stated (without evidence) by several people that it is a losing play to do it at all. I think that if it were possible for just "you" to do it every round and no one else at the table, then it would be a winning play. If it's a winning play to do it every round, then it's still a winning play to do it once when you enter a table, even though it will not make a huge difference in your overall profit.

Did you read my previous post?

FWIW-I always enter just after the button has passed...If it has gone more than the cutoff, I wait until the BB. Of course I am talking about FR.

I have never done any research on it as I didnt consider it a big deal, but I was always taught to enter after the button from whatever players were advising me for this reason I found on the web...

Instead of posting right away or even waiting for the big blind, I sit out until the button passes me and then I enter the game. I am now posting the big blind but I am doing so in late position. The blinds have the advantage of being in late position before the flop but the disadvantage of being in early position after the flop. When I wait until after the button passes I am entering the game in late position with the option to check or raise when it is my turn. After the flop, I am second-to-last to act, putting me in extremely good position. I still have several hands until the blinds get back to me.

Also -from Mod at FTP Forums
FWIW I'm pretty sure posting in the CO is always going to be profitable at a full FR table for a winning player simply based on the $/hand you end up paying for the first orbit. It was a couple of years since I saw the math on it though and I'm too lazy to do it again, but if anyone's curious it's really simple and straightforward.

Note: Here is an old, but on point article on posting from CardPlayer
Should You Wait for the Blinds to Pass?

Howard Lederer: In a ring game, posting the big blind after the button is an advantage. In a $10-$20 game, you have to pay only $10 to see eight hands, a better per-hand deal than $15 for 10 hands. And, you are in a better position when your blind money is in the pot. This is why you are allowed to do it only once as a courtesy when you sit down. If you miss your big blind after having played in the game, you have to post $15 after the button passes, and $5 of the post is dead money.


Many Live Poker Rooms allow you to enter free after the button has passed and there is no posting. Of course, in that case, it is a no-brainer to enter after the button has passed 100%

WV already explained it to me thanks. I normally skim posts cuz i have to go spam other threads

WVHillbilly said:

Ok here is the single biggest factor as to why waiting to post is better. If I wait to post I pay the same as you do for 9 hands. You play 6. 2 of my hands are from terrible position BUT 1 of my hands is from the BTN. Your way you never get to play the BTN. You're never guaranteed to act last. I always have the BTN and at least some of the time I can get the right to always act last from the BB.

So same price to play for you to get fewer hands AND no BTN. If that's not enough to convince you, I got nothing else.

Click to expand...

Are you forgetting about the small blind? By waiting, you pay 1.5 bb for 9 hands, by posting in the cutoff I pay 1 bb for 6 - same price per hand. Yes, I don't get to play the button, but I think that would be more than offset by not having to play the blinds (especially the small blind where you never get a free ride and are always out of position) and frequently having good position when defending my blind. Also, your stats for the button and cutoff are almost identical so the button does not appear to be that much better than the cutoff.

WVHillbilly said:

I don't think he's actually say he would leave every 6 hands, just using the extremes to try to prove his point. It makes comparison easier. Same idea applies though even if he stays for a thousand hands.

BTW if we were talking about a live game I would absolutely post from the CO (BTN if allowed) for a couple of reasons but mainly because of the time it takes to play a round in a casino. Online it's seconds but live it can be 20 minutes.

Click to expand...

Thanks for actually reading my posts. Do my points have any merit, or do we just agree to disagree because if I haven't convinced you, then I got nothing else either.

WEC said:

FWIW-I always enter just after the button has passed...If it has gone more than the cutoff, I wait until the BB. Of course I am talking about FR.

Click to expand...

Finally, someone else on my side! I can feel the momentum shifting!

WEC said:

Instead of posting right away or even waiting for the big blind, I sit out until the button passes me and then I enter the game.

Click to expand...

I never thought of doing that - I'll have to try it.

Edit: Nice link, too. Looks like there are a few pros on the side of posting in the cutoff.

WEC said:

FWIW-I always enter just after the button has passed...If it has gone more than the cutoff, I wait until the BB. Of course I am talking about FR.

I have never done any research on it as I didnt consider it a big deal, but I was always taught to enter after the button from whatever players were advising me for this reason I found on the web...

Instead of posting right away or even waiting for the big blind, I sit out until the button passes me and then I enter the game. I am now posting the big blind but I am doing so in late position. The blinds have the advantage of being in late position before the flop but the disadvantage of being in early position after the flop. When I wait until after the button passes I am entering the game in late position with the option to check or raise when it is my turn. After the flop, I am second-to-last to act, putting me in extremely good position. I still have several hands until the blinds get back to me.

Also -from Mod at FTP Forums
FWIW I'm pretty sure posting in the CO is always going to be profitable at a full FR table for a winning player simply based on the $/hand you end up paying for the first orbit. It was a couple of years since I saw the math on it though and I'm too lazy to do it again, but if anyone's curious it's really simple and straightforward.

Note: Here is an old, but on point article on posting from CardPlayer
Should You Wait for the Blinds to Pass?

Howard Lederer: In a ring game, posting the big blind after the button is an advantage. In a $10-$20 game, you have to pay only $10 to see eight hands, a better per-hand deal than $15 for 10 hands. And, you are in a better position when your blind money is in the pot. This is why you are allowed to do it only once as a courtesy when you sit down. If you miss your big blind after having played in the game, you have to post $15 after the button passes, and $5 of the post is dead money.


Many Live Poker Rooms allow you to enter free after the button has passed and there is no posting. Of course, in that case, it is a no-brainer to enter after the button has passed 100%

Click to expand...

The bolded part is basically worthless as it's referencing live, limit, 10-handed play.

Posting behind in limit is going to be better than at NL simply because you'll get to see a lot of flops without having to put any more in the pot or for 1 more bet with good odds. Also 10 handed you get to see more hands after the CO than you do in a 9 handed game. So yeah, if you play 10-handed limit holdem, post behind.

Interesting.

And at this moment, I tend to think that posting on the button, or CO may be a decent move, certainly not HJ or MP's.

Not sure why I've seen it here twice to wait till the button has passed? Seems the button would be the best place to enter for that first orbit. Possibly even to the point of sitting out the first blinds to purposely enter on the button.

My thinking goes along these lines;
-avoid paying the BB twice in one orbit.
-possibly avoid the traditional losing blind positions
-pay the single BB to be able to play the more potential positions
-prefer ? to enter on the button, avoiding those losing positions (SB/BB)
-Cost per (winning positions per orbit {9-2}) would be BB/7 as opposed to (SB+BB)/9 ---->(2SB/7 vs 3SB/9)**
-So for me the case is now made that the best thing to do is sit out both blinds and post a BB on the button.
-a little less valuable for the CO, and nyet on the HJ or MP's.

** example.. 10/20 ----> 20/7 = >3 vs 30/9 3.3

where the 3(.x) number reps $ per hand. So getting in on the button cost 10% less per hand/orbit for that single first orbit. Has to be +EV.

EXCEPT !!!!!

One of the things we want is to get a gauge of what and how the villains are playing, along with the possibility of letting our HUDS come up. Sitting out a good part of an orbit is good for this. So the caveat here is we don't want to sit down in the seat that the old BB left just before he posted it (a smart time to leave) and play the next button. If we do, it might be better to sit the whole orbit, and the upcoming normal spot to post the blinds and purposely post a single BB from the button.

Online sites never let you post on the BTN, always the CO. Most card rooms don't let you post on the BTN either but some do. If you can post on the BTN that's def. the way to do it.

WVHillbilly said:

Online sites never let you post on the BTN, always the CO. Most card rooms don't let you post on the BTN either but some do. If you can post on the BTN that's def. the way to do it.

Click to expand...

AHHHHHHHHHH, one of those subtle things about the game I was unaware of.

That makes posting on the CO exactly the same as posting normal BB/SB. But it really offers the disadvantage of not getting that wiggle room to get comfortable at the table (allowing HUD's to come up, and watching villains demeanor, adjusting my rubber hemroid ring.........)

WVHillbilly said:

Posting behind in limit is going to be better than at NL simply because you'll get to see a lot of flops without having to put any more in the pot or for 1 more bet with good odds. Also 10 handed you get to see more hands after the CO than you do in a 9 handed game. So yeah, if you play 10-handed limit holdem, post behind.

Click to expand...

It seems like you're slowly coming around (or would you still say that posting behind in no-limit is "one of the dumbest things you can do"), but I think you've still got this backwards. Would you agree that having position is a more important factor in playing NL than in limit? (If not, then there's probably nothing left to discuss.) Assuming that you agree, then if posting behind in limit is the correct play, then it is an even more correct in NL.

Think about it. If you're forced to put money in anyway, wouldn't you rather play it from one of the most profitable positions instead of the least profitable?

dj11 said:

That makes posting on the CO exactly the same as posting normal BB/SB. But it really offers the disadvantage of not getting that wiggle room to get comfortable at the table (allowing HUD's to come up, and watching villains demeanor, adjusting my rubber hemroid ring.........)

Click to expand...

How does posting from the cutoff have any disadvantage compared to the blinds with regard to HUD's and getting comfortable at the table. If anything, I would think that it would be an advantage to only have to post 1 bb in good position for the first two hands you see instead of 1.5 bb from the worst positions.

As for not having any reads on the table, I think that should run both ways - they don't have a read on you either. I tried it last night and you can sit out for a round before coming in at the cutoff, so that still gives you a few hands to get an initial feel for the table if you want to.

Tyler69 said:

...and x2486, dude wouldn't that be a pain to leave every 6 hands? seems hardly worth it just from that sense of it

Click to expand...

I actually tried playing a few rounds where I posted in the cutoff and left the table after 6 hands. Yes, it was a pain in the ass, but I did have a profit from the cutoff position. Sample size is too small to be relevant, but I may keep trying this now and then when I'm bored.

WVHillbilly said:

Online sites never let you post on the BTN, always the CO. Most card rooms don't let you post on the BTN either but some do. If you can post on the BTN that's def. the way to do it.

Click to expand...

Haven't found an online site anywhere that allows posting on the button.

x2486 said:

It seems like you're slowly coming around (or would you still say that posting behind in no-limit is "one of the dumbest things you can do"), but I think you've still got this backwards. Would you agree that having position is a more important factor in playing NL than in limit? (If not, then there's probably nothing left to discuss.) Assuming that you agree, then if posting behind in limit is the correct play, then it is an even more correct in NL.

Click to expand...

No I still think it's a mistake even at Limit, I just think it's even more of a mistake at NL.

I'll also say this, I don't know of a single winner at the stakes I have played online (25nl - 100nl) who posts behind. So either we're all wrong and you're right or ...

Edit: I can actually only think of 1 reg I have ever played who always posted behind. This guy: http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/crossfade37

WVHillbilly said:

No I still think it's a mistake even at Limit, I just think it's even more of a mistake at NL.

Click to expand...

So from the earlier link, 3 pros say it's a winning play, two say it's a wash, but you say it's a mistake because... why? I think I'll have to go with the pro's on this one.

WVHillbilly said:

I'll also say this, I don't know of a single winner at the stakes I have played online (25nl - 100nl) who posts behind. So either we're all wrong and you're right or ...

Edit: I can actually only think of 1 reg I have ever played who always posted behind. This guy: http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/crossfade37

Click to expand...

We're talking about a situation that can only occur once during your entire time at a table. Depending on how long you stay at a table, it's probably about as small a leak as anyone can have. So playing it incorrectly will have almost no effect on someone's winning or losing status. It's only important because...



"If you were to be allowed to play six hands a round, posting a single $20 blind when you are one behind the button, while all your opponents played nine hands a round putting in the normal blinds, there is no way a good player wouldn't destroy the game." - Steve Badger

from: www.playwinningpoker.com/poker/blinds/posting/

This thread has turned into a very interesting debate. When I first started playing I almost always posted when I first sat down. I really had no idea what the hell I was doing back then though. Now I will always wait for my BB to come around to play my 1st hand at a table. You guys have argued it up and down but unless your playing live it doesnt make much sense to post out of turn since the game is so quick online.