raising out of turn

vodkastr8 · Sep 9, 2009

hi need a answer to a question
player A had KJ
player b had AK
FLOP J 8 5
2 players left in
player A checks player
player B asks how much player A has
player B checks
player A then says all in before next card is down
player b says but u checked
player a says sorry next card comes down KING he says i have to stick by what i said all in
player b calls and loses
player b says player a mislead him by making him think the last card down did not help him

is there any ruling on this type of situation

absoluthamm · Sep 9, 2009

There is nothing against going all-in blind if that is what you're asking.

dmorris68 · Sep 9, 2009

^^^

Although I don't recall ever seeing a blind shove, I have often seen a player blind bet the next street before it lands. And of course people check blind all the time, so I don't really see how this is any different.

absoluthamm · Sep 9, 2009

dmorris68 said:
^^^

Although I don't recall ever seeing a blind shove, I have often seen a player blind bet the next street before it lands. And of course people check blind all the time, so I don't really see how this is any different.

Yea, I have never seen a blind shove either, but I was mainly just saying that there is nothing against making a move blind, whether it be betting, checking or shoving.

Hambone8705 · Sep 9, 2009

I have shoved blind a couple of times in our home game. We play a 3 or 4 little turbo tournaments a night so a lot of times theres a big stack up against someone who squeaked into second (we usually pay 2 or 3 places). I even shoved while still shuffling one time LOL. God I love this game!

absoluthamm · Sep 9, 2009

I think it was on an episode of Poker After Dark or something where someone blind shoved before the deal and ended up with a premium hand. For some reason I want to say it was Hansen, but I can't really put a finger on it. Maybe it was just a dream...

Vollycat · Sep 9, 2009

Before the turn card, Player a made a bet in the dark.
It's Player b's action even before the turn card is shown.
Roll em over because Player b called Players a all in.
Player a scoops the pot.
Pretty simple and no real controversy at all.

clubsta · Sep 9, 2009

I suppose it's a bit mean to do, but nonetheless it's not punishable. Do casino's do anything ever to punish people who actually bet out of turn?

dmorris68 · Sep 10, 2009

clubsta said:
I suppose it's a bit mean to do, but nonetheless it's not punishable. Do casino's do anything ever to punish people who actually bet out of turn?

They can penalize you for betting out of turn especially when doing it intentionally for purposes of angle shooting, but I'd say that is entirely different than announcing dark action before the next street, which you'll see quite often.

clubsta · Sep 10, 2009

dmorris68 said:
They can penalize you for betting out of turn especially when doing it intentionally for purposes of angle shooting, but I'd say that is entirely different than announcing dark action before the next street, which you'll see quite often.

I see. Do you know what exactly the penalty usually is exactly? Like a chip deduction or an automatic fold or something?
Yeah, no, I agree--announcing dark action is definitely not the same thing as betting out of turn.

seuatx · Sep 10, 2009

This is a bet in the dark situation.. As soon as the last player that has action on him acts whether it be check/bet/fold, he has acted so player A went all-in blind there. The way you wrote it makes it sound a lot faster then it prob really happened but it’s still an allin in the dark situation and that’s perfectly legal.

dmorris68 · Sep 10, 2009

clubsta said:
I see. Do you know what exactly the penalty usually is exactly? Like a chip deduction or an automatic fold or something?
Yeah, no, I agree--announcing dark action is definitely not the same thing as betting out of turn.

It would depend on the casino/cardroom, and we have a few dealers/casino employees here at CC who would know better than I. In a cash game, I'm not sure they could do much more than kick you out of the game. In tournaments, penalties usually take the form of forced sit-outs while you get blinded down a few hands or orbits.

LukeSilver · Sep 10, 2009

I raised with AA in live tourny game someone moved all in I announced call instantly out of turn they said my hand was dead, and the casino forced me to fold even though on the rules and regulations on the wall it clearly explains in that situation that you are forced to call but cannot raise.

Suffice to say I am never playing at that casino again.

ratmantoo · Sep 10, 2009

How did player A win?

Player B has two pair Kings and Jacks

Player A has one Pair Ace High

Only way could be an Ace on the river (except for flush possibilities).

Anyway looking at the hand it makes no difference that the all in was out of turn or in the dark. After the flop and the turn Player B has the winning hand. That player A sucked out on the river just plain sucks (if this is in fact the case)

absoluthamm · Sep 10, 2009

LukeSilver said:
I raised with AA in live tourny game someone moved all in I announced call instantly out of turn they said my hand was dead, and the casino forced me to fold even though on the rules and regulations on the wall it clearly explains in that situation that you are forced to call but cannot raise.

Suffice to say I am never playing at that casino again.

Did you not call the floor manager over to the table? Because if it is stated, especially out in the open on the wall, then they would abide by it.

dmorris68 · Sep 10, 2009

LukeSilver said:
I raised with AA in live tourny game someone moved all in I announced call instantly out of turn they said my hand was dead, and the casino forced me to fold even though on the rules and regulations on the wall it clearly explains in that situation that you are forced to call but cannot raise.

Suffice to say I am never playing at that casino again.

Yeah that sounds like a bad call to me. Oz or one of the other dealers on CC posted a very informative post somewhere here about the ways a hand can be considered dead, and betting out of turn wasn't one of them IIRC. Of course rules can vary by venue, but as hamm pointed out, if it was posted on the wall in plain view, I think I would have had to take a stand on it.

OzExorcist · Sep 11, 2009

clubsta said:
I see. Do you know what exactly the penalty usually is exactly? Like a chip deduction or an automatic fold or something?

None of those. It'll be either the player is forced to sit out for a period of time (while still being blinded off) or if they keep doing it and the tournament director thinks it's warranted they can be kicked out of the tournament and their chips can be removed from play.

That's got nothing to do with this situation though, because the action was not out of turn. FWIW it was a bet too, not a raise. But that's just nitpicking. A checked, B checked, then A bet dark for the next street. All the action is in turn.

Vollycat · Sep 11, 2009

Exactly what Oz said.

serendipity · Sep 11, 2009

absoluthamm said:
I think it was on an episode of Poker After Dark or something where someone blind shoved before the deal and ended up with a premium hand. For some reason I want to say it was Hansen, but I can't really put a finger on it. Maybe it was just a dream...

Here is the tourney you are talking about. And Gus went all-in blind like 20 times in a row! Note, this was actually a good strategy do to the payout structure of this particular tournament. Here is part one, if you want to see the rest, do a YouTube search for "Gus Hansen goes crazy".

YouTube - Gus Hansen going crazy 1/4

vodkastr8 · Sep 13, 2009

thank u all so its called a blind shove and there is nothing illegal about cheers

clubsta · Sep 15, 2009

OzExorcist said:
None of those. It'll be either the player is forced to sit out for a period of time (while still being blinded off) or if they keep doing it and the tournament director thinks it's warranted they can be kicked out of the tournament and their chips can be removed from play.

Ah, interesting punishment. Well, I'll certainly not be making that mistake in a casino.

raising out of turn

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