Seeing the Bottom of the Deck

Zippity · Dec 1, 2017

If I see the bottom card of the deck following the first round of betting, do I have to accept it if it is dealt to me?

microse · Dec 1, 2017

Zippity said:
If I see the bottom card of the deck following the first round of betting, do I have to accept it if it is dealt to me?

Home game or casino? Clearly no one should be dealing from the bottom of the deck. At a casino they should have a cover card for the bottom. If they don’t and you catch this, call the floor and have them review cameras to see if they can spot it. Might be best to do so discreetly so they can see if it continues in case the recording doesn’t show it well.

At home game, I would call them out and see what’s up.

Zippity · Dec 1, 2017

Sorry, yes, a home game.

The dealer had inadvertently revealed the bottom card after dealing the original hands.

I was unlucky enough to be dealt the card that I had already seen.

MstrBlast3r · Dec 1, 2017

Zippity said:
Sorry, yes, a home game.

The dealer had inadvertently revealed the bottom card after dealing the original hands.

I was unlucky enough to be dealt the card that I had already seen.

You are playing with a cheat ... call them out or avoid the game

Zippity · Dec 1, 2017

I was dealt a card off the bottom of the pack, I was dealt the LAST card which I had seen earlier.

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity said:
I was dealt a card off the bottom of the pack, I was dealt the LAST card which I had seen earlier.

I don't fully understand this. As you saying you were dealt a card like the

and you saw the

on the bottom of the deck? Likely just careless dealing, get a cut card. Ethically, you should say that you saw the card and provide an equal amount of information to everyone. You can't always be 100% sure, so often you might not. I would fold this specific hand, if one of my outs was dead.

Are you saying you saw the

on the bottom of the deck and then got dealt the

? There's cheating and/or misdealing going on, get a cut card and/or don't play in this game.

Are you saying you were dealt the

and then saw the

still on the bottom of the deck? There are duplicate cards in the deck which means the current hand is halted and backed up to the start and the deck is fixed. This happens sometimes when playing with multiple decks.

Zippity · Dec 2, 2017

This tale is getting more and more confusing.

We had all been dealt our 5 cards, had discarded the rubbish and were awaiting our new cards.

Prior to the second deal, I saw the bottom card of the remaining cards in the pack and thought, "that card is of no use to me and the two pair I am holding".

As luck would have it, I was dealt the last card.

Before picking the card up, I said that I didn't want it as I knew that it was the 3 of hearts and promptly turned the card over to show everyone.

I was told that I had to accept the card.

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

This is game and situation specific. So, I went and consulted the relevant areas of Robert's Rules of Order. Accepting or rejecting the card is determined by the game. But, that doesn't seem to matter here.

You have to accept the card, unless it was exposed due to dealer error, which does not appear to be the case from your version. You saw it because the dealer was careless and you were paying attention. It was exposed by your own actions and behavior, not the dealer's.

It is strictly against the rules for the player being able to choose whether they take the card or reject it. The required action is determined by the specific game, and for draw poker (high) you aren't allowed to take it; but, that is for a card exposed by dealer error. Like I said, you revealed the card to the table. That doesn't mean you get to reject it.

Get a cut card. Practice better procedures for shuffling and cutting. That will prevent this from happening again. But, the right choice appears to be made.

Herkstwin · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity said:
If I see the bottom card of the deck following the first round of betting, do I have to accept it if it is dealt to me?

I am assuming you are talking about a poker game. The bottom card is card #52. In what variation of poker does the ENTIRE DECK get dealt out to the players?

The only other explanation is that someone is dealing off the bottom of the deck, a totally unethical dealer. Run away. Run away FAST.

Everyone is trying to help you, but we need more information.

Zippity · Dec 2, 2017

I exposed the card to confirm that it was the card that I had seen (and announced) from the bottom of the pack.

I was not allowed to take another card after the final dealing had been completed.

I still won with my 2 pairs, but my rejection of the card, led to some unease around the table.

AlexTheOwl · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity, Herk makes a good point. You said you were playing a game with discards, and mentioned having five cards.

It sounds like you were playing five card draw?

But in that game there are up to six players. Each player receives five cards, and can discard and replace up to three of them.

So the maximum number of cards used is (6 players * 8 cards) = 48 cards. There should always be four or more cards left in the deck at the end of the second deal, so no one should ever get dealt the bottom card.

Since this was a home game, maybe you were playing with more than six players, and just hoping that the maximum number of cards used would never be reached? Or using cards from the discard pile if you ran out of cards in the deck?

Zippity · Dec 2, 2017

There were nine (9) of us playing five card draw.

7 cards remain for second deal and remainder of discards get redealt to make up numbers when required.

I saw and received the 7th card.

AlexTheOwl · Dec 2, 2017

Thanks, makes sense!

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity said:
I exposed the card to confirm that it was the card that I had seen (and announced) from the bottom of the pack.

Like any other card from your hand, that you deliberately expose to the table, you don't get to replace it with a new card. To allow players to act like you did would be to permit massive opportunity for angle-shooting. Clearly, you weren't angling this time, but it opens the door.

The fact that the bottom of the deck was flashed is a different issue. Either put something in place (a cut card) to prevent this, in the future, or find a way to handle it (maybe stop and have the dealer reshuffle when the bottom is seen by any players).

I was not allowed to take another card after the final dealing had been completed.

Exactly as it should have been.

mtl mile end · Dec 2, 2017

vinnie said:
This is game and situation specific. So, I went and consulted the relevant areas of Robert's Rules of Poker.....

FYP^

Yeah, like everyone else said

- get a cut card!!
- don't play five card draw with more than six players
- don't play five card draw with a four max draw with more than five players

Seeing the bottom card is really the least of your worries - what if the stub runs out before a player gets their draw???

I play in a home game that will occasionally seat eleven at the table (too late to split into two tables, someone is leaving soon, etc). We like to play PLO once per orbit. With eleven, we all know the whole deck will be used - one exposed card and we're all screwed.

mtl mile end · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity said:
There were nine (9) of us playing five card draw.

7 cards remain for second deal and remainder of discards get redealt to make up numbers when required.

I saw and received the 7th card.

This is a pretty wonky system. Players who have discarded know some of the contents of the reshuffled stub. This is a huge angle to play.

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

Zippity said:
There were nine (9) of us playing five card draw.

7 cards remain for second deal and remainder of discards get redealt to make up numbers when required.

I saw and received the 7th card.

Ugh, 9 people for a draw game? And a home-game where you know everyone with play for the draw? It would play better to have two tables (4 and 5) and not 9. Even though, normally, 5 is the minimum number of players for a decent draw game. There's just too much hassle and slowdown for reshuffling during the draw with a 9 handed table.

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

mtl mile end said:
FYP^

Yeah, like everyone else said

- get a cut card!!
- don't play five card draw with more than six players
- don't play five card draw with a four max draw with more than five players

Seeing the bottom card is really the least of your worries - what if the stub runs out before a player gets their draw???

I play in a home game that will occasionally seat eleven at the table (too late to split into two tables, someone is leaving soon, etc). We like to play PLO once per orbit. With eleven, we all know the whole deck will be used - one exposed card and we're all screwed.

LOL, that was my phone correcting what it thought was a typo. Yeah, 9 is way too many for a draw game. I wouldn't even like a game that was 8 handed. 5-7 is the real amount that keeps it interesting. But, I would always prefer 3-4 handed to 9 handed.

As for the stub running out, they reshuffle the discards and deal from that. It's a horrible thing.

Zippity · Dec 2, 2017

Hey, it is a social, family and friends group that have been playing together for 45+ years. I am just the baby in the group

The stakes are not huge - 50 cents max

vinnie · Dec 2, 2017

If it is as casual and small stakes as you think, then just don't worry about it. You see the bottom of the deck, oh well. You have slightly more information than everyone else.

Doesn't change the fact that you will be stuck with whichever card your are dealt, even if you saw it before it was dealt to you.

Zippity · Dec 2, 2017

Thanks for the comments.

I just wanted to know if I was on the right track or not by refusing to accept that particular card.

Seeing the Bottom of the Deck

Zippity

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microse

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Zippity

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MstrBlast3r

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Zippity

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vinnie

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Zippity

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vinnie

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Herkstwin

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Zippity

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AlexTheOwl

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Zippity

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vinnie

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mtl mile end

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vinnie

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vinnie

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Zippity

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vinnie

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Zippity

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