Are Short Stackers Almost Always Donks?

only_bridge said:

I know people who multi 24-table 10nl, shortstacking.
Other than that the Valencia shortstackers are infamous.
And Mark Vos of course (professional player on FullTilt).
But I have a question. Are those people hated cause they hit and run? Or is it because they take all the money from the fish?

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I have been researching this issue the last few days and it seems full stack players are upset because the game changes dramatically from post flop play to pre flop play with a small stack shove before/after the flop.

Full stacks are also limited in there pre-flop selection of hands because they never have odds to to play suited connectors ect against SS.

Full stack players also get caught in a position that they either fold to a short stacks push after raising the pot,or play a multiway pot with other full stacks with a high % of there chips in before the flop.In other words the Full stack player has to fold more marginal hands due to the risk to thier stack from Full stackers.

It completely changes the game for full stackers and takes the fun/play out of the game.

Im sure someone can give more insight :icon_sant

Snow

Snow, I'd say you nailed the reason for the hatred. You can correct for them and adapt to them, and table select to put them in less obnoxious table positions, but there's no denying a couple shortys in the wrong seats can mess up your SC's and a lot of plays you'd normally be able to tear up a full stacked table with.

KK, you may want to take into consideration that your current play style, perhaps due to your preflop raise sizes, or flop bet sizes, or both, is geared towards generating aggressive and favorable SPRs with your medium stacks. Maybe this is generating an image that carries over into the time when your stack is deeper? Just a guess at what the results might be illustrating, also a common mistake is being a bit too willing to stack off while full stacked, remember the deeper your stack the better your holding will typically be when you want to get all in. Sounds like you're on track, but just some thoughts that might lead you to some sort of gain. I say this because you should be adjusting your play based on your stack sizes, check out information on SPR's for more info on this recommended reading is Professional No Limit Holdem by Miller Mehta and some other guy. Also remember, when you have the money, its yours. Period. I'm sure you "know" it, but it helps to KNOW it, if you get what I mean there. If you're looking at % returns instead of direct dollar or BB/100h, then you shouldn't expect an amazing pick up in the short run by starting stacked, or at all perhaps? As your initial investment is much larger, so stacking up to 3x max buy in as a half stack means a 500% increase as opposed to a 200% increase as a full stack. Also, many of your oppoenents won't have full stacks, so when you stack them, maybe you'd have them covered when you're half stacked, or just weren't leaving all that much on the table, but in the big picture you'll make more the times your big hand happens to come up early on and you have the full stack to stack a full stack.

Sorry for the derailment, but that is to be adressed in a new thread to be started soon.

I only play SS at my current bankroll @ 100NL because I don't have the money to buy in full - obviously I have over $100 but I try to keep the $50 buy in to help deal with variance. I'm going to belgo suisse here and say 50NL and below, yes. I've never seen a good 50NL SS be a good player. I'm sure there are, I just haven't seen them. The only reason I go in short stacked (I buy in 50 BB in 100NL) is bankroll management. I'm still a successful player at 100NL with my short stack.

it does seem most short stacks are in their for one hand to shove and see if they hold or not this does make play for most normal stacks a lot harder

Kasanova King said:

You don't get it - they still call you - just yesterday I was dealt KK as a matter of fact, the flop came 3 rags - I DOUBLE BET THE POT - some donk called me all the way to the river with A-8....and guess what, he caught an ace on the river. Ok, don't get me wrong, I've made a ton of money off these people but the reason I was able to do so is because of my short buy ins. We're talking micro stakes - I would never buy in short anything over $1-$2or live for that matter.

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If you get into a heads up situation with a shortstack donk, you are profiting more often than not. Just keep stacking them off.
When there is more than one calling station in a hand throw your cards away unless you got some nuts cause someone probably hit.

It's funny--only since reading the posts on this site(lurking for a while, and now joining) have I even become aware of the short-stacker, as specific entity, and the scourge they are on a full-stacked player. I always buy-in full. They've always been an annoyance, but I didn't realize how many there were OR that they were deliberately buying in short. Didn't realize that their strategy was so pervasive to my full-stack play.

But now that I've been made aware of their nefarious ways and means, I find myself taking measures against them... Mostly, if there are more than two or three at a 9player table, I'm gone. Even if I've been crushing the table.

If I do stick around, and one of them is in position to "do their thing", I'll take the action away from them by betting their full stack. I wouldn't, of course, do this with garbage(as a steal) because we know they will call with marginal hands... But if I have a hand that I want to play, i.e. a nice middle suited connector, or a middle pocket pair, well, let THEM have to make a decision. I'm sick of 3betting in early position, only to have to fold my JTsuited to a $22 reraise because I MIGHT be behind preflop(the SS WANTS me to fold--hates the showdown...just knows that a good player will protect his stack and not recklessly abandon reason). So if there's no likely caller between me and the villain, and I wanna see a flop, I'm gonna push the action myself for his whole measly stack, rather than wonder if he's pushing with his own mediocre poop. It's the difference, for me, between playing scared(which NEVER works for me) and playing my own thoughtful, confident, tight/agg game.

Just my two cents.

M

I love when people try and avoid people stacking off with A4o pre-flop. If you could just herd all those players to me that'd be great. I'll take my odds all day.

its not a horrible way to play as loads of players would call off 20BB pre flop with a weak hand as they think its not that much, but in terms of skill, there's virtually none as all decisions are already made for you e.g - what hands to raise with in what positions and what hands to move allin with if you're reraised.