I just read that at most poker rooms cards are live until they touch the muck. You discard to the dealer and he/she puts them in and they touch and die. I would think you can still call or fold as long as you didn't make a motion to toss them towards the dealer, middle of the table towards the mucked cards, or verbally say that you fold/muck. You can hold them in hand or in front of you I would presume but I'm not sure of the technicalities, I'm sure there are some. I don't play live. Anyone?
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I have always believed in tournament play if you flip your cards face up on an all in and thereare no other players in the hand then you are calling the all in.
If there are other players in the hand then it is just bad table manners to flip your cards up.
If there are other players in the hand then it is just bad table manners to flip your cards up.
I know in the wsop you are not allowed to show your cards like that. Daniel Negreanu likes to talk about what a silly rule that is.
The reason you are no allowed to show cards before deciding to call or fold is to prevent collaboration. Players can dump chips to each other.
Let's say Player A and Player B are friends. The tournament is on the bubble with 100/200 blinds. Player A shoves on the button for his last 600 chips. Player B is in the BB with 9,600 chips.
Player B looks down and sees K/9.
Theoretically, B could want to help assure that his buddy makes the money. Player B then exposed his K/9. His buddy gives him a "please fold I'm beat" signal and then player B mucks the hand, giving Player A a small win which won't guarantee that he makes the money. Or alternatively, he could give him a "yeah I can beat that, please call" signal which gives Player A an excellent chance of doubling up and finishing in the money.
The reason you are no allowed to show cards before deciding to call or fold is to prevent collaboration. Players can dump chips to each other.
Let's say Player A and Player B are friends. The tournament is on the bubble with 100/200 blinds. Player A shoves on the button for his last 600 chips. Player B is in the BB with 9,600 chips.
Player B looks down and sees K/9.
Theoretically, B could want to help assure that his buddy makes the money. Player B then exposed his K/9. His buddy gives him a "please fold I'm beat" signal and then player B mucks the hand, giving Player A a small win which won't guarantee that he makes the money. Or alternatively, he could give him a "yeah I can beat that, please call" signal which gives Player A an excellent chance of doubling up and finishing in the money.
The hand definitely isn't folded. I don't believe it constitutes an automatic call either though.
Poker TDA Rule 12 says:
Of course, if the tournament doesn't follow the TDA rules then all bets are off. It's entirely possible some tournaments have house rules that mean exposed cards are automatically folded. It'd be a crap rule, but that doesn't mean it's not valid for that tournament.
Poker TDA Rule 12 says:
12. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands
2. Advise or criticize play before the action is complete
3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
And Rule 31 says:Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands
2. Advise or criticize play before the action is complete
3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
31. Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.
That means you're not supposed to show the hand and you can be subject to a penalty. But any penalty only takes effect after the hand is over and your hand isn't dead - you can still act on it however you see fit.A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.
Of course, if the tournament doesn't follow the TDA rules then all bets are off. It's entirely possible some tournaments have house rules that mean exposed cards are automatically folded. It'd be a crap rule, but that doesn't mean it's not valid for that tournament.
In normal live tournaments this is allowed and does not constitute a call nor a fold, but you have to be careful as I've seen a guys cards get snatched by the dealer 🙂. And open them up behind the line on the table. If the dealer starts dealing the flop or tries to go for your cards, use the international stop hand sign.
flint said:
What constitutes a "normal" live tournament?
Most casinos around the world follow the TDA rules I cited above, or a pretty close derivation thereof. Cash games will often allow you to show cards, but not many tournaments will.
Not all casinos have betting lines on their tables either and even in those that do, they don't necessarily mean anything.
Umm at the casino I work at you are not allowed to expose your cards to another player, even if you are heads up. Most players know this rule and when this situation comes up they are folding and showing there hand, if the player flips his cards over and waits a second and then calls, I would have to call the floor over and have them make the judgement.
Its understandable that casinos won't allow people to show their hands... I know that I've done it in some home games when faced with an all in bet I show my cards to try and see the reaction of the player I'm thinking about calling... not exactly fair play but it ain't cheating if everyone can do it right?
As for casinos/cardrooms I'm pretty sure they don't allow it in tournaments but in cash games its ok at least where I play
As for casinos/cardrooms I'm pretty sure they don't allow it in tournaments but in cash games its ok at least where I play
this happened to Tony G at last years premiere league poker. He thought he had been called but he haddnt. I think it ended up he wasnt aloud to go all in or something...and i think he had 66 in his hand. any way i think the director let them play the hand but tony g wasnt aloud to go all in or something..ironic as he flopped the set.. Im sure youl be able to see that hand online somewhere..utube or something
Yea I saw that too Rinser
Tony G thought he was covered by a chunky raise, must have assumed it was a stack sized bet as he was the shorty. (Was it by Marcel Luske? Prob not!).
Threw his cards face up and announced 'call' after the 60k raise... Problem was, he was sitting on nearly 100k (still the short stack).
He showed 6 6 against A 10. The Ace fell, but so did the 6 to make Tony's set. The director had allowed the hand to continue but Tony was only allowed to A) call a raise, or B) fold his cards. At no point was he allowed to show any action to the pot.
Obviously it got checked to the river and his opponent was glad to have limited his losses!
Roland De Wolfe laughed so much he cried! I think he still made the final though!
Tony G thought he was covered by a chunky raise, must have assumed it was a stack sized bet as he was the shorty. (Was it by Marcel Luske? Prob not!).
Threw his cards face up and announced 'call' after the 60k raise... Problem was, he was sitting on nearly 100k (still the short stack).
He showed 6 6 against A 10. The Ace fell, but so did the 6 to make Tony's set. The director had allowed the hand to continue but Tony was only allowed to A) call a raise, or B) fold his cards. At no point was he allowed to show any action to the pot.
Obviously it got checked to the river and his opponent was glad to have limited his losses!
Roland De Wolfe laughed so much he cried! I think he still made the final though!
This is typically a house rule. Before doing something like this I would ask the house if I can table my hand before I act. At my home game we allow it, but it is a home game, heh... Doyle mentions doing it in SS. I don't see anything wrong with it, so long as everybody is clear on the rule.
The only time I can see it being a problem is if not everyone is clear on the rule... ie SB bets and is ai, BTN flips over his cards but does not act, SB thinks he won and flips over his cards as a brag... what do you let BTN do here? ick.
The only time I can see it being a problem is if not everyone is clear on the rule... ie SB bets and is ai, BTN flips over his cards but does not act, SB thinks he won and flips over his cards as a brag... what do you let BTN do here? ick.
Syfted said:
The BTN's hand would be dead, because his action of flipping the cards and NOT calling forced the SB to reveal his hand and the floor would not let the BTN decide if he wants to call an ai being able to now see his opponents cards.
jordanbillie said:
Unless there's some funky house rule in place, the button's hand will not be dead. And it wasn't his action that "forced" the small blind to reveal his hand anyway: it was the small blind's stupidity that did that.
People get really stuck on this dead hand thing. About the only way that ever happens is if 1: the player tosses their cards into the muck or 2: the player doesn't protect their hand by putting a chip or something on top of it and the dealer mucks it by mistake.
Don't confuse "subject to penalty after the hand" with a dead hand, because they're very different.
The reasoning behind the showing penalty is that it influences the betting.
Therefore, if there are more than two people are in the hand, and you show, a third party may fold who may otherwise not. The dealer should fold your hand.
If, however, the hand is heads up, a reveal for a read is perfectly legal. Everyplace I've played anyway.
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Therefore, if there are more than two people are in the hand, and you show, a third party may fold who may otherwise not. The dealer should fold your hand.
If, however, the hand is heads up, a reveal for a read is perfectly legal. Everyplace I've played anyway.
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Interesting you bring this up, and it DOES differ depending where u play. I play some small tournaments, and I can tell you one great example of showing cards. I think it was 2 more outs to the bubble. Preflop, some good raising going on. I think biggest raise was to 8x BB, with a call or two. A guy goes all in for 20x big blinds or so, and turns over pocket aces, saying "fold, i have you all beat". He did it to pick up all the blinds and assured himself past the bubble. Doubled up his chips with no risk.
CardConnoisseur said:
Very cool story, but is that really wise? If he let the hand play out he may have tripled or even quadrupled up, and would likely have placed higher in the tournament. It's a cool story, because a bizarre action allowed him to make the money, but not necessarily the best action to take...
Not sure if it's wise or not, but it was a good way to ensure his way into the bubble. Some people have different priorities in a tourny. While most of us look to get to the first place, a few people are happy enough to make it past the bubble. Why risk losing when u can make sure money by showing.
CAPT. ZIGZAG said:
The dealer should NOT fold your hand, and your hand shouldn't be ruled dead.
There are very good reasons for this. Say you show your hand and you've still got chips behind - the other player in the hand may or may not want to raise you. They've done nothing wrong, and it's unfair to them to be denied the chance of a call just because you broke a rule.
You're absolutely right about the reasons it's against the rules in a multi-way pot though.
I've read Matt Savage's explanation of why the TDA rules don't allow it even when a hand is heads up: they feel that even though a hand might be heads up now, it didn't start out that way and you're providing an unfair advantage to the one player that hung around by showing your cards - so they treat it kinda like soft playing. Take that as you will I guess.