Trusting Your Instincts

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 5, 2011

So you think he flats QQ but shoves AQ? I'd guess he'd be flatting or folding to my 4-bet so were pretty much facing KK+. I don't think our equity is so good then.

TylerN · Mar 5, 2011

dude wtf? when did i say he flats QQ? shoves AQ?

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 5, 2011

Sorry, I meant shoves AK. You said nits are willing to stack off with QQ+ AKs+ and AKo. I said I know this guy flats QQ so were not flipping 51 to 49% because if we can take QQ out of his stacking off range we can take AK out too leaving us with AA and KK.

Clearly I'm flogging a dead horse here. Keep getting KK in no matter what and keep getting sets in on 4 to a flush boards or straight boards and never take anything else into account cos at da micros dey stack off with 47o.

xdeucesx · Mar 5, 2011

JohnBoyWWFC said:
You didn't really fix my post since I'm talking poker in general not just 'the micros' as everyone seems to be hung up on. It's like if someone is running 7/6/1 Vpip/Pfr/3bet they have the same ranges whether it's 2NL or 200NL.

a. this isnt true ^^^^....Lots of players at 2nl arent paying enough attention to even understand there playing tight. They will get it in for stacks w/ Axs, low pocket pairs, etc... Even running 7/6 isn't a perfect example unless you have atleast 1k hands or so on a player, bc certain sessions you just won't pick up hands

b. Don't play the stats at 2nl as much as you would at 200nl...theres a reason the blinds are .01/.02 not 1/2$, its bc the play is different. To assume that someone w/the same stats at different levels is playing the same hands is flawed. (See C)

c. Player A at 200nl running 13/9/4 (i know this isnt realistic, but roll w/it) might be playing all pocket pairs and A10s +....3 bet JJ+. At 2nl, a 13/9/4 is not playing the same hands, bc its 2nl and he doesnt understand what being a TAG means....hell he probably doesnt even know what PTR3 is. So at 2nl his 13/9 may look more like All Ax's, 88+ and 3bet A10+, QQ+

though the ranges are somewhat similar, there's stilll a difference

4. Never fold KK preflop ever, ever , ever , ever .....if you have ptr3, filter your KK when facing a 3bet and I guarantee over a large enough sample size, that your profitable

Hope this helps johnny

baudib1 · Mar 6, 2011

If you honestly put someone on a range of KK+ and you have KK then it's an easy fold.

xdeucesx · Mar 6, 2011

baudib1 said:
If you honestly put someone on a range of KK+ and you have KK then it's an easy fold.

ya but even FX himself doesn't represent that range...and if theres actually a situation that can be assigned with KK+ than it doesnt mean that its profitable to just throw KK away for all the other times when villian isn't representing that range

baudib1 · Mar 6, 2011

yah it all depends on the table, the dynamics and history and reads.

I'm most aggro online 6-max games, I cannot imagine folding any of JJ+/AK in a BTN vs. blinds situation, for instance.

In a lot of live games it is very easy to put someone on exactly Aces and fold Kings.

slgalt · Mar 6, 2011

In general if you get a strong gut feeling then good to listen to that, but, you said you read the hud, which is technically not your gut.

And if the person was feeling pushed around they might have uncharacteristically 3 bet.

Also have you analyzed hands where you went with your gut and seen the % of times you were right? You could factor that % in your calculations in the future.

ben_rhyno · Mar 6, 2011

Maybe now you can listen to what i said since everyone else has backed it up lol

nightmoves44 · Mar 6, 2011

kkay

Last week I got KK in a very similiar situation,and I folded them.But another nut did call,the villian had 44,the nut caller had AQ,and I folded the winner.
So,the next time,I think I will shove them KKs and close my eyes,lol.

xdeucesx · Mar 6, 2011

actually your just leapfrogging off my comment ben haha

ben_rhyno · Mar 7, 2011

True lol, he should listen to both of us now!

Aldito · Mar 7, 2011

OP, where are you getting this idea that people have said not to lay down sets on 4-to-a-flush boards????

And lol @ folding KK preflop.

Also, how do you know you saved yourself 6BI's by folding kings? Did they show every time?

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 8, 2011

tenbob said:
Stop outleveling yourself, dont fold sets or KK pre-flop.

Aldito said:
OP, where are you getting this idea that people have said not to lay down sets on 4-to-a-flush boards????

And lol @ folding KK preflop.

Also, how do you know you saved yourself 6BI's by folding kings? Did they show every time?

That's where I got the don't fold sets. Ben Rhyno also said it.

I said I threw away 6BIs by NOT folding KK when I felt I was beat.

ben_rhyno · Mar 8, 2011

I didn't say don't fold sets on a 4-flush board. But you shouldn't be folding them just on a monotone flop or because you just have a feeling. E.g. if you have 2c2d and the board come KhQhJh10h-2s i think you can fold lol. Still don't fold kings pre.

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 8, 2011

You're saying there's no circumstances that you'd fold KK pre now that we've figured we should sometimes fold sets?

TylerN · Mar 8, 2011

did you see the board he would fold a set on?

and wat's up with ur signature?

ben_rhyno · Mar 8, 2011

Preflop, unless in a satellite on the pure bubble, or on the money/FT bubble of the wsop main and there are 5people all in before us, then no, I'm not folding KK

cjatud2012 · Mar 8, 2011

There are situations where folding sets would be okay. There might even be a few spots where you could get away with KK pre-flop.

However, the truth is that if you're looking to make hero folds with KK or sets too often, you are costing yourself so much money.

tenbob · Mar 8, 2011

JohnBoyWWFC said:
You're saying there's no circumstances that you'd fold KK pre now that we've figured we should sometimes fold sets?

I don't really know what you are trying to achieve. Looking for spots to make massive hero folds on nl$2 is just silly, I stack KK every single time here pre, without exception.

tusabes · Mar 8, 2011

Instincts: Fight or Flight

Folding KK is not a big deal. I wish I could do it more.

The other day playing 25nl FR I ran into KK vs. AA and lost my buy in. Later on I had KK again on a dif. table and was reraised to $2.5. I though sh_t he's got AA and i'm crushed again...I can't fold KK and flatted OOP. We got to the turn I had 4to a flsh and shoved all in like $18 into a $14 pot. The opponent went into time bank and finally made the call. He had AA, I missed my club and lost another bi. My instincts said flight not fight.

I finished the session losing $38. If I had been dealt rags those two hands I could have been +12. So...it got me thinking about what is my edge in these games, how am I trying to win, and what am I trying to win?

My edge: I have a better plan and will work harder to beat my opponent.

How/my plan: Play pots IP. Exploit OOP limp/folders, OOP 3bet callers who check/fold to cbet, and squeezing OOP players in multi player pots. Basically play a bunch of small pots IP vs. players who put up little if any resistance.

What do I want to win: A few $/table to make a decent hourly wage.

I'm trying to repeat the same situation over and over vs. the same or same type of opponents to win some money. When I get resistance from someone who I'm not comfortable tossing my stack into the middle with, what is the big deal if I fold and in a few seconds or minutes I'll be right back into a spot where I'm confident I'm winning. I hate not controlling the action and now am working on getting out of hands I don't have control.

Our instincts will tell us to fight or flight. The sooner we acknowledge the signal and act accordingly the better off we will be. imo

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 8, 2011

tenbob said:
I don't really know what you are trying to achieve. Looking for spots to make massive hero folds on nl$2 is just silly, I stack KK every single time here pre, without exception.

I take it the fact I'm up to 10NL since this thread started makes no difference?

JohnBoyWWFC · Mar 8, 2011

tusabes said:
Folding KK is not a big deal. I wish I could do it more.

The other day playing 25nl FR I ran into KK vs. AA and lost my buy in. Later on I had KK again on a dif. table and was reraised to $2.5. I though sh_t he's got AA and i'm crushed again...I can't fold KK and flatted OOP. We got to the turn I had 4to a flsh and shoved all in like $18 into a $14 pot. The opponent went into time bank and finally made the call. He had AA, I missed my club and lost another bi. My instincts said flight not fight.

I finished the session losing $38. If I had been dealt rags those two hands I could have been +12. So...it got me thinking about what is my edge in these games, how am I trying to win, and what am I trying to win?

My edge: I have a better plan and will work harder to beat my opponent.

How/my plan: Play pots IP. Exploit OOP limp/folders, OOP 3bet callers who check/fold to cbet, and squeezing OOP players in multi player pots. Basically play a bunch of small pots IP vs. players who put up little if any resistance.

What do I want to win: A few $/table to make a decent hourly wage.

I'm trying to repeat the same situation over and over vs. the same or same type of opponents to win some money. When I get resistance from someone who I'm not comfortable tossing my stack into the middle with, what is the big deal if I fold and in a few seconds or minutes I'll be right back into a spot where I'm confident I'm winning. I hate not controlling the action and now am working on getting out of hands I don't have control.

Our instincts will tell us to fight or flight. The sooner we acknowledge the signal and act accordingly the better off we will be. imo

This ^^^
I think you put it far more eloquently than I managed.

I'm not trying to say I'm folding KK every time I get 3 or 4 bet, it's just that sometimes you feel you're behind for one reason or another even with a monster. I remember folding AA on a 359 monotone flop when a mate was here and he called me a stupid nit, until 2 players got all in and flipped over 55 and 99.

TylerN · Mar 8, 2011

JohnBoyWWFC said:
I take it the fact I'm up to 10NL since this thread started makes no difference?

nope no difference. Probably has nothing to do with your "hero" folds.

tenbob · Mar 8, 2011

JohnBoyWWFC said:
I remember folding AA on a 359 monotone flop when a mate was here and he called me a stupid nit, until 2 players got all in and flipped over 55 and 99.

This is so much different than folding KK pre.

Its pretty easy to check in HEM, go to advanced filters, select KK and filter = allin preflop and see how much you make. If its a + figure then you are making money doing it.

Trusting Your Instincts

JohnBoyWWFC

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TylerN

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JohnBoyWWFC

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xdeucesx

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xdeucesx

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slgalt

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xdeucesx

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Aldito

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