what is the right bet to take your opponent off the flush draw?

djrudeboy · Nov 6, 2008

NLHE - Lets say you you catch top pair nice kick or 2 pair on the flop. you make a 1/2 pot size bet and are called. You put them on the flush draw! the turn is a blank. he has 9 outs. what is the right size bet to push him off the hand? Is a pot size bet enough? mathematically?

DaveE · Nov 6, 2008

Yes, pot bet is perfect. he has 1/3 odds. His odds off hitting are less....+EV play, but he could suck out on you though

DaveE · Nov 6, 2008

Are there other factors that I'm missing?

Believe me I'm not trying to be a dick....but I don't want to give bad advice...If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear about it.

WVHillbilly · Nov 6, 2008

On the turn you don't need to bet so much (he's only going to get there ~20% of the time) and since your not going to pay him off when he does (right?) you'd rather have him make a mistake and call, not fold. If he'll call a full pot bet, great, bet full pot, but if you think he'll fold to a "big" bet a half-pot bet still allows him to make a pretty bad mistake and allows you to pick up a few $$ more.

Also if you have 2 pair and a couple of his "outs" give you a FH (and his entire stack), you may be right to even give him a free card if the stacks are deep enough.

TIGERSTUMP · Nov 6, 2008

if he is a bigstak ,hes prob gunna call no matter wat u do,,if its on the turn card,, on the river hes 6 te 1 to hit the flush so it depends if the player u are playin is a gambler gd player or a fish ,, u gotta way it all up in ye head and play the player ,,

CAPT. ZIGZAG · Nov 6, 2008

djrudeboy said:
NLHE - Lets say you you catch top pair nice kick or 2 pair on the flop. you make a 1/2 pot size bet and are called. You put them on the flush draw! the turn is a blank. he has 9 outs. what is the right size bet to push him off the hand? Is a pot size bet enough? mathematically?

This depends on your stack size compared to his. And your position at the table. It appears he has position on you, and he may be slow playing a monster.

If you don't have enough duckets to scare him off, it might be a better play to check to the river and see what he does. Hey, you make the big bet or he does. What's the difference, if you were gonna do it anyway? If he bets hard he's either sensing weakness in you (wuts yer table image?) or he's gotta monster and needs no flush. If he checks, then you know. The river will make you smile or grimace.

If you have more than him, a push would still be a gambling bet as he just might hit. And if he's a LAG he will prolly make the call.

I tend to be a little more tiptoey in these situations.

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irishyaz · Nov 6, 2008

i think there is no right bet, it depends on your opponent some people would bet there house and a card coming out. i think you should know what kind of player your opponent is at this stage in the tournament then make the right bet. if its the early stage make a small bet and if he raises you then fold and wait till the next hand, there always another hand to play as long as you got a chipn a chair

OzExorcist · Nov 6, 2008

The thing is, if we're sure they're on a flush draw, or that our hand is going to hold up if that flush doesn't come, then we don't actually want our opponent to fold. We want them to call every single time with the wrong odds. Sometimes they'll make their hand, more of the time they won't, and in the long run we'll walk away with the moneyz.

Hillbilly's said it, the flush draw will only hit about 20% of the time on the river. I'd be betting as much as you think your opponent is willing to call - if it's around half the pot or more you should be giving them the wrong odds.

raines42 · Nov 6, 2008

check raise

Sounds crazy and most would flip out on the idea that you are giving him a free card, but I like to check raise. Most players are going to try and push you off the pot by betting into you... at this point I raise and they usually fold... I know this isn't the right move, but it works for me

thebiatch22 · Nov 16, 2008

some people will not get off a draw even if you put them all in you have to pay attention to how the player has been playing all along cause some might get off it to a small bet where others may be willing to risk it all so i would say to pay attention to how they have been playing than you can decide what it would take to get them to fold if thats what your wanting to do

ruffcut68 · Nov 21, 2008

If you have the nuts that can not be improved then givem a free card and let them sink themselves

WVHillbilly · Nov 21, 2008

sdexcid said:
K everything was right here except giving him a free card. Dont ever give a player a free card to make their hand. Make them pay to see obv

Generally you're mostly correct.

But let's say you hold JJ on a board of 8c3cQhJd and you suspect your opponent has a club draw. There is currently $300 ($10/$20 blinds) in the pot and you and your opponent both have 5K stacks. You know your opponent will likely fold to a turn bet because his equity is small compared to the bet amount, so you let him have a free card (while in position) and hope that he hits his nut flush by pairing the board with Jc/Qc, in which case you may get his entire stack. Basically you let your opponent draw cheaply in a small pot (relative to the remaining stacks) in hopes of him making a strong, though 2nd best, hand. In this case if a non pairing flush card hits on the river you'll be paying off a relatively small bet or winning a large amount when you both hit.

On the other hand if your opponent will pay to draw or the stacks are shallower you shouldn't ever give a free card.

For reference I took this from NLHTAP by Sklansky and Miller.

ruth99 · Nov 21, 2008

I would bet 3/4 of the pot....depending on who your playing against...an all in would not make them fold!!!!!

Halibel · Nov 21, 2008

If you suspect the flush draw, bet pot or higher.
If they raise all in... kinda obvious.

zachvac · Nov 21, 2008

ruth99 said:
I would bet 3/4 of the pot....depending on who your playing against...an all in would not make them fold!!!!!

If they're not going to fold to an all-in, why not bet all-in? Why not get your money in with the best hand?

WVHillbilly · Nov 22, 2008

zachvac said:
If they're not going to fold to an all-in, why not bet all-in? Why not get your money in with the best hand?

Totally over-rated. I like to slow play until I get outdrawn and THEN push all-in. Makes the BBV post much better imo.

lukester22 · Nov 22, 2008

Any bet over half the pot is enough to give him the wrong odds but that doesnt necessarily mean you are going to get him off of his draw. It depends on how he plays. He might be willing to go all in with his flush draw and if you know that you should bet all in while you have a big edge. If he is a mathematical player then he will call the flop and should fold the turn to any bet over half the pot. It really depends on your reads on the player and what you have seen from him. But the best bet to try to scare him off the draw would be to go all in. But he still might call anyway.

slipknot4life · Dec 2, 2008

I don't ever like to bet someone off with a flush draw, I want them to come along and chase, that is how u build the pot. If u really put them on the draw then over bet, or make the pot size bet, it can get u pot comitted to calling of the rest of your chips if the flush hits. I think the more u bet the more juicy the pot looks for the guy with the draw to call. But if u don not like what I said then just bet more than the pot, this way he gets no odds on his money to call. Say the pot is 300, bet 500, 800 in the pot. He would have to call 500 to win 800, not getting odds to call. But doing this also gives away your hand, your telling him I have a hand now and i do not want u drawing out on me. So he knows if he hits his flush it will probably be good.

Flushbuster · Dec 3, 2008

Sometimes no bet is big enough because some players will chase a flush to the end( like me lol )

LvilleSlugr · Dec 3, 2008

Flushbuster said:
Sometimes no bet is big enough because some players will chase a flush to the end( like me lol )

I agree, It all depends on the player and their situation. If a player is low chipping and feels like he is in a corner, sometimes there is nothing you can do.

LvilleSlugr · Dec 3, 2008

zachvac said:
If they're not going to fold to an all-in, why not bet all-in? Why not get your money in with the best hand?

I agree, but, you should not get to steamed if you get out drawn. After all, this will happen 1/3 times. I prefer to place sizable bets until the flush either hits or does not. If it hits, I become very cautious. If it does not hit by the river, place a value bet in hopes that your opponent will call with a weak bet or bluff at you in hopes of stealing the pot.

LvilleSlugr · Dec 3, 2008

Personally, I think going all in is a mistake. You are then committed to playing the hand. It is better to make smart, affordable bets and play the hand by ear. The only time I would go all in is if I were desperate to win the pot and the gain would be a real one.

what is the right bet to take your opponent off the flush draw?

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