How do you read a player when you only have basic HUD stats?

I’ve been trying to understand HUD stats better, but sometimes you don't have enough information on a player to get a complete picture. For example, you might only have VPIP and PFR, or VPIP, PFR and 3-bet, because you haven't played enough hands against them.

If I see someone with 25 VPIP and 20 PFR, I can get an idea that they are fairly active and aggressive preflop, but I don't know how they play postflop or whether those numbers are reliable with a small sample.

How do you guys approach situations like this? Which basic HUD stats do you consider most useful when there isn't much information available? And how many hands do you usually want before you start trusting stats like VPIP, PFR and 3-bet?

Also, do you prefer making decisions mainly from the HUD, or do you pay more attention to the player's actual actions and betting patterns at the table?

Robert12_12 said:

I’ve been trying to understand HUD stats better, but sometimes you don't have enough information on a player to get a complete picture. For example, you might only have VPIP and PFR, or VPIP, PFR and 3-bet, because you haven't played enough hands against them.

If I see someone with 25 VPIP and 20 PFR, I can get an idea that they are fairly active and aggressive preflop, but I don't know how they play postflop or whether those numbers are reliable with a small sample.

How do you guys approach situations like this? Which basic HUD stats do you consider most useful when there isn't much information available? And how many hands do you usually want before you start trusting stats like VPIP, PFR and 3-bet?

Also, do you prefer making decisions mainly from the HUD, or do you pay more attention to the player's actual actions and betting patterns at the table?

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If you are playing few enough tables that you can combine HUD stats with observations, then you can get a more complete picture.
VS the player you describe we can only use the data we have. They have a balanced HUD stat, which suggests they have skill. We would then think of them as being skilled post flop until we see otherwise.
What is your definition of skilled at the buy-in level you play? Not expert just skilled.
1 are they positionally aware?
2 Understand board interaction bet sizing for Villain ranges?
3 -Build a list of skills in study that you expect them to have then in game watch to see if they deviate from that skill set post flop.

Robert12_12 said:

If I see someone with 25 VPIP and 20 PFR, I can get an idea that they are fairly active and aggressive preflop, but I don't know how they play postflop or whether those numbers are reliable with a small sample.

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Those numbers are standard LAG or GTO numbers for a 6-handed table or a 8-handed table with antes. So the interpretation is, that this is likely some kind of regular / studied player. You just take standard / GTO lines against them, because you dont have any information allowing you to do something different, and right of the bat this is not someone, you are expecting to make money from in the long run.

Robert12_12 said:

And how many hands do you usually want before you start trusting stats like VPIP, PFR and 3-bet?

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VPIP and PFR start to be usefull already after 20 hands. Sometimes even less if the stats are extreme like 91/9. Thats a very loose fish, even its only 11 hands. Maybe after 100 hands the numbers will be 68/7, but you already have a pretty good idea, what kind of player this is. 3-bet generally require more than 100 hands and even more, if you want to know, if its 6% or 9%, which does actually matter.

A tip is to look at PFR, since it would be rare to see someone with a low PFR but a high 3-bet or the opposite. So if you see for instance VPIP 19 / PFR 15 / 3-bet 18, then that 3-bet number is almost certainly not the true long term number, and you should not begin to 4-bet this player light or anything of that nature. Its ok to fold to a 3-bet from this player, because he was likely just running hot and picked up some good spots to 3-bet.

Robert12_12 said:

Also, do you prefer making decisions mainly from the HUD, or do you pay more attention to the player's actual actions and betting patterns at the table?

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Both of that. Often the HUD-data is the best information, we have. But we always want to pay attention (as much as possible) to unusual actions not picked up by the HUD. Like if someone suddenly use a different bet size, we can start to think about, what this mean. Or if they suddenly start to ship it in preflop for way to many blinds, and this happen more than once, maybe they are on tilt.

Robert12_12 said:

I’ve been trying to understand HUD stats better, but sometimes you don't have enough information on a player to get a complete picture. For example, you might only have VPIP and PFR, or VPIP, PFR and 3-bet, because you haven't played enough hands against them.

If I see someone with 25 VPIP and 20 PFR, I can get an idea that they are fairly active and aggressive preflop, but I don't know how they play postflop or whether those numbers are reliable with a small sample.

How do you guys approach situations like this? Which basic HUD stats do you consider most useful when there isn't much information available? And how many hands do you usually want before you start trusting stats like VPIP, PFR and 3-bet?

Also, do you prefer making decisions mainly from the HUD, or do you pay more attention to the player's actual actions and betting patterns at the table?

Click to expand...

i can not read players, i read my cards always

Experience, timing tells, country they're from and even the image they use on the site can give you hints on how they might play. While I use a HUD and have for many many years my custom setup has very few stats showing. I use my HUD mostly for studying/hand reviews and to keep track of how much I've win/lose. There's no easier or better way to do hand reviews and keep track of wins/loses then with a HUD.

I play mostly TAG+exploitive+instinct/feel.

Cheers!!!

eetenor said:

If you are playing few enough tables that you can combine HUD stats with observations, then you can get a more complete picture.
VS the player you describe we can only use the data we have. They have a balanced HUD stat, which suggests they have skill. We would then think of them as being skilled post flop until we see otherwise.
What is your definition of skilled at the buy-in level you play? Not expert just skilled.
1 are they positionally aware?
2 Understand board interaction bet sizing for Villain ranges?
3 -Build a list of skills in study that you expect them to have then in game watch to see if they deviate from that skill set post flop.

Click to expand...

That’s a good way of looking at it. I especially like the idea of using the HUD as a starting point rather than treating the numbers as the complete read on a player. If I see something like 25 VPIP / 20 PFR, I might assume they understand preflop fundamentals, but I shouldn’t automatically assume they’re equally strong postflop.

I also like your point about defining what “skilled” means at the buy-in level. Position awareness and understanding board interaction and bet sizing would definitely be things I’d watch for. I think the key is to start with the HUD-based assumption and then look for actual hands that confirm or contradict it.

hardongear said:

Experience, timing tells, country they're from and even the image they use on the site can give you hints on how they might play. While I use a HUD and have for many many years my custom setup has very few stats showing. I use my HUD mostly for studying/hand reviews and to keep track of how much I've win/lose. There's no easier or better way to do hand reviews and keep track of wins/loses then with a HUD.

I play mostly TAG+exploitive+instinct/feel.

Cheers!!!

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That’s interesting. I like the idea of keeping the HUD simple during play instead of having too many numbers on the screen. I can see how experience, timing and actual observations can give you information that the HUD can't. I’m also curious about your TAG + exploitative approach — how do you decide when you have enough information to deviate from a more standard TAG strategy and start exploiting a particular opponent?

Robert12_12 said:

That’s interesting. I like the idea of keeping the HUD simple during play instead of having too many numbers on the screen. I can see how experience, timing and actual observations can give you information that the HUD can't. I’m also curious about your TAG + exploitative approach — how do you decide when you have enough information to deviate from a more standard TAG strategy and start exploiting a particular opponent?

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Cash game. That basically all comes down to experience, history against villain and the overall tendencies of the player pool. One easy perfect example would be against a villain who raised pre-flop in position and I call(out of position say from the SB orBB) and the flop comes nothing over 9 high....perfect flop for me to consider a check raise as that flop didn't hit villains range majority of the time. While a check-raise from a TAG screams monster so villain is only going to stay in the hand if he has a monster pocket pair. Even then I've gotten guys to fold and show as high as JJ. I can also fire a pot sized bet on the turn if it's another low card. Never try this against a calling station either...............you have to know villain is capable of making a fold.

At 2nl and 5nl thou one can honestly just play straight up TAG and still make a profit no need for fancy plays and over thinking things against that player pool. So I don't use that play as much at 2nl and 5nl.

In an MTT......I'd be a bit more cautious about this play as I don't normally re-buy so only get 1 life. But at 2nl, 5nl and 10nl full-ring cash this play prints money if villains see you as a TAG player who traps a bit more then avg and I likely should.

Keeping the HUD simple and less stats showing is really the only way in my opinion for the avg rec/hobby player......as having too much info can just get confusing to use every hand and takes too long. If a situation comes up where I need more info or I'm guess/questioning things I can click on my HUD and it will show tons of stats.

Cheers!!!

hardongear said:

If a situation comes up where I need more info or I'm guess/questioning things I can click on my HUD and it will show tons of stats.

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I think, this is a really important point. We dont need to see donk betting stats all the time, but when someone occationally donks into us on the flop, it can be quite helpfull to know, if they are an habitual donk better, or if they have only done this 1 time in 34 opportunities. In the latter case we should probably give them a bit more credit for having hit the flop in some way.

fundiver199 said:

I think, this is a really important point. We dont need to see donk betting stats all the time, but when someone occationally donks into us on the flop, it can be quite helpfull to know, if they are an habitual donk better, or if they have only done this 1 time in 34 opportunities. In the latter case we should probably give them a bit more credit for having hit the flop in some way.

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Exactly......there's a lot of stats we don't need to see every hand or hell even every session. I find myself rarely needed more stats from the HUD then I have showing. The higher the stakes/competition I play thou I find myself using or needing a bit more....more often. Even then thou it's not enough that I feel I need to add them to my custom HUD so I see them all the time.

Cheers!!!

With VPIP and PFR only you already can have a clue about the kind of player the opponent is.
Sometimes you find stats like 50/5, 5/3, 50/45, 15/1, which shows an unbalanced game strategy. Or no strategy at all, in some cases. These are players that you can exploit.
You can know too if you are facing a nit, a tag or a lag good player, which helps a lot too.
Of course you will need a good amount of hands to take these conclusions.

hardongear said:

Cash game. That basically all comes down to experience, history against villain and the overall tendencies of the player pool. One easy perfect example would be against a villain who raised pre-flop in position and I call(out of position say from the SB orBB) and the flop comes nothing over 9 high....perfect flop for me to consider a check raise as that flop didn't hit villains range majority of the time. While a check-raise from a TAG screams monster so villain is only going to stay in the hand if he has a monster pocket pair. Even then I've gotten guys to fold and show as high as JJ. I can also fire a pot sized bet on the turn if it's another low card. Never try this against a calling station either...............you have to know villain is capable of making a fold.

At 2nl and 5nl thou one can honestly just play straight up TAG and still make a profit no need for fancy plays and over thinking things against that player pool. So I don't use that play as much at 2nl and 5nl.

In an MTT......I'd be a bit more cautious about this play as I don't normally re-buy so only get 1 life. But at 2nl, 5nl and 10nl full-ring cash this play prints money if villains see you as a TAG player who traps a bit more then avg and I likely should.

Keeping the HUD simple and less stats showing is really the only way in my opinion for the avg rec/hobby player......as having too much info can just get confusing to use every hand and takes too long. If a situation comes up where I need more info or I'm guess/questioning things I can click on my HUD and it will show tons of stats.

Cheers!!!

Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense, especially your point about knowing whether Villain is actually capable of folding before trying an exploit like that. I also like the idea of keeping the HUD simple and only looking at additional stats when a specific situation requires them. I think it’s easy to get overwhelmed by too much information and forget to pay attention to the actual player and the board. Do you think this approach works differently against regulars compared with unknown players?

tagece said:

With VPIP and PFR only you already can have a clue about the kind of player the opponent is.
Sometimes you find stats like 50/5, 5/3, 50/45, 15/1, which shows an unbalanced game strategy. Or no strategy at all, in some cases. These are players that you can exploit.
You can know too if you are facing a nit, a tag or a lag good player, which helps a lot too.
Of course you will need a good amount of hands to take these conclusions.

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Yeah, I agree that even just VPIP and PFR can give you a pretty useful first impression of a player. The extreme examples like 50/5 or 50/45 would definitely make me pay more attention to how that player is approaching the game. I think the difficult part is knowing when the sample size is large enough to trust those numbers. Do you have a rough number of hands where you start feeling confident that the VPIP/PFR stats are reliable?

fundiver199 said:

I think, this is a really important point. We dont need to see donk betting stats all the time, but when someone occationally donks into us on the flop, it can be quite helpfull to know, if they are an habitual donk better, or if they have only done this 1 time in 34 opportunities. In the latter case we should probably give them a bit more credit for having hit the flop in some way.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think having the extra stats available when you actually need them is much better than having everything displayed all the time. The donk-bet example is a good one because seeing that someone has only done it once out of 34 opportunities gives you a completely different read than if they do it regularly. I’m starting to think the HUD is more useful as a tool for answering specific questions rather than trying to use every stat on every hand.

hardongear said:

Cash game. That basically all comes down to experience, history against villain and the overall tendencies of the player pool. One easy perfect example would be against a villain who raised pre-flop in position and I call(out of position say from the SB orBB) and the flop comes nothing over 9 high....perfect flop for me to consider a check raise as that flop didn't hit villains range majority of the time. While a check-raise from a TAG screams monster so villain is only going to stay in the hand if he has a monster pocket pair. Even then I've gotten guys to fold and show as high as JJ. I can also fire a pot sized bet on the turn if it's another low card. Never try this against a calling station either...............you have to know villain is capable of making a fold.

At 2nl and 5nl thou one can honestly just play straight up TAG and still make a profit no need for fancy plays and over thinking things against that player pool. So I don't use that play as much at 2nl and 5nl.

In an MTT......I'd be a bit more cautious about this play as I don't normally re-buy so only get 1 life. But at 2nl, 5nl and 10nl full-ring cash this play prints money if villains see you as a TAG player who traps a bit more then avg and I likely should.

Keeping the HUD simple and less stats showing is really the only way in my opinion for the avg rec/hobby player......as having too much info can just get confusing to use every hand and takes too long. If a situation comes up where I need more info or I'm guess/questioning things I can click on my HUD and it will show tons of stats.

Cheers!!!

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You've got some good advice here. No doubt you've been playing for awhile. Would you mind sharing with us how long you've been playing for?

All statistics should be considered, but I like to think of it this way: if the villain has a high VPIP, they tend to play weaker hands, which gives me the confidence to take them on with medium-strength hands as well.

Robert12_12 said:

That makes a lot of sense, especially your point about knowing whether Villain is actually capable of folding before trying an exploit like that. I also like the idea of keeping the HUD simple and only looking at additional stats when a specific situation requires them. I think it’s easy to get overwhelmed by too much information and forget to pay attention to the actual player and the board. Do you think this approach works differently against regulars compared with unknown players?

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100% it's easy to get overwhelmed...I remember when I first started using a HUD it was overwhelming cause I had too many stats showing.

I find it works against regs although a good reg and they do exist in micros will put you in more situations where you'll need to go looking at other stats more like fundiver's donk bet example above. Against unknowns till I get a feel for them I revert to a simple TAG strategy.

Cheers!!!

Robert12_12 said:

I’m starting to think the HUD is more useful as a tool for answering specific questions rather than trying to use every stat on every hand.

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This is 100% true. If you raise 99 preflop, get action and flop middle set on a dry board, you dont need to know the opponents HUD-stats to decide to bet for value. If you constantly look at HUD-stats, when they are not important, they can easily become a distraction more than a help.

fundiver199 said:

This is 100% true. If you raise 99 preflop, get action and flop middle set on a dry board, you dont need to know the opponents HUD-stats to decide to bet for value. If you constantly look at HUD-stats, when they are not important, they can easily become a distraction more than a help.

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Exactly. I think that’s an easy mistake to make when you first start using a HUD — you see all the numbers and feel like you should be using them on every hand. But in straightforward situations, the board and the action often tell you everything you need to know. I think the HUD is most valuable when you’re facing a close decision and need some extra information about Villain’s tendencies

narc said:

All statistics should be considered, but I like to think of it this way: if the villain has a high VPIP, they tend to play weaker hands, which gives me the confidence to take them on with medium-strength hands as well.

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Yeah, I like that way of thinking about VPIP. A high VPIP gives you a reason to widen your value range against that player, but I think the important part is also looking at their PFR and post-flop tendencies. Someone with a high VPIP but very low PFR is quite different from someone with a high VPIP and high PFR. Do you also adjust your bet sizing against these different types of players?