Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

BentleyBoy · Jun 24, 2020

Another really helpful session which I enjoyed very much. I had not heard of the rule, if in doubt bet the turn, but it makes perfect sense, so thank you for identifying this really useful rule.

Thank you

BB

Debi · Jul 12, 2020

BentleyBoy said:
Another really helpful session which I enjoyed very much. I had not heard of the rule, if in doubt bet the turn, but it makes perfect sense, so thank you for identifying this really useful rule.

Thank you

BB

I like that rule too!

zam220 · Jul 13, 2020

The main thing is to learn how to control the bank! In the later streets you win and lose the most chips! And so I try to control the bank, because betting on the turn and river will help to keep the stack if you have a bad hand or to pick up if you are ahead! There is also an opportunity to bet on turn or river win a pot of bluffs!

Coinuss · Jul 27, 2020

All three rules are great. When I started to follow these rules, I started winning a lot of small pots and losing more often, but winning huge pots even more often. After this lesson, it seemed to me that my understanding of opponents became better. Thanks to Collin and Katie.

Good Man · Oct 17, 2020

So so I need to work on the turn and river game. It is on these streets that I am sometimes passive. This needs to be fixed.
On the turn and the river, the following situations are possible:

1. I clearly have a weak hand.
2.I Have a very strong hand.
3.I Have a borderline hand.
The first situation is the opposite of the second. If I have a weak hand, I must try to get out of the game in order to avoid further losses, then with a strong hand, I must draw in such a way as to provoke my opponents to put as much money in the pot as possible.
In the third situation I have a borderline hand: I have a strong enough card, but I can't be sure what the strongest one is. my task is to determine where I am at the moment with minimal expenses.
If the first situation is clear enough, then the second and third create certain problems for the player.

Life is a game , play beautiful

carmenzu · Nov 12, 2020

"When in doubt, if you’ve bet the flop, then bet the turn".
Betting on the turn is easy if you have bet on Preflop and Flop, as CB the river is more difficult if I am not sure of winning, many hands escape on the river, especially with calling station

Phyrrura · Nov 15, 2020

So, what is the 3 keys?!

The keys are: aggressive, aggressive, fake passive and then go aggressive again.

Since the beginning of this course, one of the thinks that really improved my game is being more and more aggressive.
One of the mainly results for me is that I don't end up some bad streets by letting some rags player steal my good hands by giving them a lot of free or cheap cards.

Pichman189 · Nov 15, 2020

Well. the turn and river are my weakest point. How can I understand that my opponent is bluffing if I don't use any software and play from my phone? And I love to play zoom and fast poker. Very often I lose on the river when all in. Any advice on how to lose less on the river? Should I fold if I don't have the nuts, if my opponent is all-in?

Katie Dozier · Nov 15, 2020

Pichman189 said:
Well. the turn and river are my weakest point. How can I understand that my opponent is bluffing if I don't use any software and play from my phone? And I love to play zoom and fast poker. Very often I lose on the river when all in. Any advice on how to lose less on the river? Should I fold if I don't have the nuts, if my opponent is all-in?

It can be tough, particularly when playing on your phone, but try to make sure you’re watching the action as much as possible—even when you’re no longer in a hand. That will make it much easier to have accurate ideas of how your opponents are playing, which will be crucial in terms of being able to range them well.

Hope this helps!

Pichman189 · Nov 17, 2020

Katie Dozier said:
It can be tough, particularly when playing on your phone, but try to make sure you’re watching the action as much as possible—even when you’re no longer in a hand. That will make it much easier to have accurate ideas of how your opponents are playing, which will be crucial in terms of being able to range them well.

Hope this helps!

Yes, observation in poker is very important, I noticed that. you need to be very careful about your opponents and try to read the range of hands. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I will try !!)

RimworldDoctor · Nov 17, 2020

Pichman189 said:
Yes, observation in poker is very important, I noticed that. you need to be very careful about your opponents and try to read the range of hands. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I will try !!)

Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range.

Pichman189 · Nov 18, 2020

RimworldDoctor said:
Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range.

Yes, I noticed a correlation between the rates and the range of the opponent's hand. The better the hand, the more he bets. But there is one thing: this is the concept of bluffing in poker and if you are a tight player or rock, you will most likely fold all hands except the nuts if they bet a lot. Thus, you will give the pot before the opening without knowing if they had something. I'm sure you have to be a very good psychologist in poker. Naturally, it's easier in live tournaments, but we're talking about online poker right now. And we just have to watch the bets and guess the range of hands and whether the opponent is bluffing or not. Yesterday I had 15 difficult calls on the river: I won 8 and lost 7. This proves once again that river bluffs> 50% of opponents are used. These are purely my practical observations. And I will be very happy if someone tells about this in more detail from their personal experience.

Collin Moshman · Nov 18, 2020

RimworldDoctor said:
Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range.

I agree that at lower-stakes, more players will focus on their own hand instead of your range. That is a nice aspect about freeroll and micro-stakes games

Phyrrura · Dec 30, 2020

Not the most frequent, but the most valuable!

I think Collin is right, you won't be playing as many late streets as you do in the pre-flop and flop, but once you get there, you gotta have a good play because it will be very expensive to play wrong at these spots.

P1R35 · Jan 4, 2021

Hi Collin,
I have few questions about Turn play.

1. In the course you said that we should bet the turn when the scary card hits, for example Ace.
But how scary it really is for Villain when we check back flop with many A highs because they have SDvalue ?

2. How in game you choose if the turn card is still good for bet for value ?

3. How you pick your turn sizing ? Do you use just one sizing for specific turn ? Or you use more sizings with different hands ?

For example:
We open to 2.5bb LJ 50bb, BB unknown player calls.
Flop (6bb) we CBet 3bb,
Turn (12bb) 45bb Stack.

4. Bet or check, what sizing ? (on 9s and blank 2d)

-

a) TT
b) KdQd
c) Th8h
d) Ks7s

5. Bet or check, what sizing ? (on 7d and blank 2s)

-

a) AsQc
b) 99
c) Td8d
d) KsKd

Collin Moshman · Jan 4, 2021

Nice questions P1!

1. Sometimes "scare cards" won't be scary -- particularly to good hand reads who know they don't connect well with our range. So this is just a good general guideline and you're absolutely right that their are exceptions

2. Based on whether we think our hand is good enough that if we bet and our opponent calls, we're still likely getting action from more worse hands than better hands.

3. Bigger sizing if coordinated can serve well just like the flop. If you're unsure, then go with 1/2 pot which tends to be a nice default.

For the quiz-type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples. With TT as a set, I'd check with 4 to a straight on board and bet around 70% of pot on the blank turn. With Td8d I'd bet both turn cards against most opponents, and size down slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

Hope that helps!

el_soma77 · Jan 4, 2021

Collin Moshman said:
Good questions Q1!

1. Sometimes "scare cards" are not scary, especially for high-handed readers who know they don't connect well with our range. So this is just a good general guideline and you are absolutely right that there are exceptions

2. Depending on whether we think our hand is good enough that if we bet and our opponent calls, we are likely to still get hand action. more worse. what better hands.

3. A larger size if coordinated can serve well as the flop. If you're unsure, choose 1/2 pot, which is usually a good default value.

For the quiz type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples.With TT as a set, he would check with 4 to a straight on the table and bet about 70% of the pot on the blank turn. With Rd8d I would bet both cards on the turn against most of the opponents, and reduce the size slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

I hope it helps you!

I think what the master says is true, we must take into account the card that comes out on the turn and on the river, in order to bet by value, this depends on the combinations that came on the flop, I think it's fine Let him say half pot, okay, we must learn to handle this type of situation and by obtaining good information from the villain, we can win pots without having to finish the hand.

P1R35 · Jan 4, 2021

Collin Moshman said:
For the quiz-type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples. With TT as a set, I'd check with 4 to a straight on board and bet around 70% of pot on the blank turn. With Td8d I'd bet both turn cards against most opponents, and size down slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

Hope that helps!

So on that JT8-9sss turn you will use just one sizing like 70%? And bet with Qx/Flush ?
What about if Villain called turn and river paired the board ? We won't have any full houses so we would bet river with flushes only ? (and can't call vs XR

).

And flop Q93dd.
On 8d you will still use ~50% ? Or you will go up because it's more coordinated (JT hits, FD hits) than 7d ?

Shouldn't we use smaller sizing on the turn when obvious draws (like FD/OESD) hits ? Like we dont need to bet bigger for protection anymore but we also dont wanna give a free cards ?

Collin Moshman · Jan 4, 2021

P1R35 said:
So on that JT8-9sss turn you will use just one sizing like 70%? And bet with Qx/Flush ?
What about if Villain called turn and river paired the board ? We won't have any full houses so we would bet river with flushes only ? (and can't call vs XR ).

And flop Q93dd.
On 8d you will still use ~50% ? Or you will go up because it's more coordinated (JT hits, FD hits) than 7d ?

Shouldn't we use smaller sizing on the turn when obvious draws (like FD/OESD) hits ? Like we dont need to bet bigger for protection anymore but we also dont wanna give a free cards ?

Just one sizing on JT89sss against most players, possibly vary some (generally being more literal) against unobservant opponents. If the river paired we wouldn't have many full houses in our range, but that doesn't mean we would always have to bet/fold. Against a good player, we could either bet some 2-pair/set combos at the turn or use game theory to decide on a calling range vs check-raise based on how high up we are in our range and his sizing.

On other board, I would go with larger sizing on 8d compared to a blank.

And that depends re the last question, I wouldn't normally use smaller sizing when the obvious draw hits because we still benefit from protection if a flush draw flops and comes in at the turn (a lot of hands will have one card of the suit). But if let's say the flop is Q J T and the turn is a 9, then it can make sense to decrease sizing because there's a lot less to protect from at that point.

P1R35 · Jan 4, 2021

OK

Two more things, I promise

What worse hand would you bet for value with 70% on
Q93dd, 8d ?
KQ? AQ? With or without a diamond ?

Let’s do other board.
AT2r, What CB size would you make here ? 1/3? 1/2?
Turn Ks (back door flush draw).
What sizing would you pick ? Flop was kind of dry, turn is wetter so 50%? Or more ?

EnigmaTTO · Jan 7, 2021

Hi Guys, I have a question concerning calling on the river to catch bluffs. Is the size of the bet a factor we take into consideration here? or are we solely concerned with the fact that there are busted draws on the board when we have showdown value? For example, if we're facing a bet sizing that doesn't give us great pot odds, does that change anything?

Collin Moshman · Jan 8, 2021

EnigmaTTO said:
Hi Guys, I have a question concerning calling on the river to catch bluffs. Is the size of the bet a factor we take into consideration here? or are we solely concerned with the fact that there are busted draws on the board when we have showdown value? For example, if we're facing a bet sizing that doesn't give us great pot odds, does that change anything?

Great question. Yes, the size of the bet does impact our decision here.

Specifically: We should be more inclined to call smaller bets that are offering us better odds. The reason is that we can be wrong a lot more often and still profit because of the good odds.

Collin Moshman · Jan 8, 2021

P1R35 said:
OK
Two more things, I promise
What worse hand would you bet for value with 70% on
Q93dd, 8d ?
KQ? AQ? With or without a diamond ?

Let’s do other board.
AT2r, What CB size would you make here ? 1/3? 1/2?
Turn Ks (back door flush draw).
What sizing would you pick ? Flop was kind of dry, turn is wetter so 50%? Or more ?

No problem!

First question: It depends on who our opponent is, positions, and pre-flop action. For example, heads-up (as in only two dealt into the hand) against a loose- passive player, any queen including Q2o would usually be plenty good enough to keep on firing. Whereas you would want a much stronger hand in other situations.

Without any other info though, a hand like AQ might be around the bottom of our value-betting range. Having a diamond is somewhat neutral to this decision since it makes our hand stronger but means we need less protection.

On an AT2r flop, I would c-bet around 50% pot as my sizing. With a turn K putting up flush draw too, I might increase to around 60% pot.

Collin Moshman · Jan 8, 2021

Let me add, P1, that I wouldn't worry too much about getting things exactly right. Different players would have different recommendations I'm sure, and you really just want to think about what you're accomplishing and the best way to do it.

If your goal is to beat the highest stakes, that might require work on GTO play and using solvers.

If your goal is to crush at reasonable stakes, a lot is just thinking about how your opponents will react and what you're trying to accomplish. On AT2 K, what's his range? Will he call a huge bet when you have the nuts? Would a small sizing work to get him to fold T9 type hands?

Feel free to keep asking questions, I just don't want you to feel pressured to have exact answers. You clearly think about the game very well!

P1R35 · Jan 10, 2021

I was thinking about reasonable stakes.

I just wanna know a reason / factors that determine what sizing to choose on the turn.

But I guess I should just thinking what my hand wanna achieve and this should be my first thought.

Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

BentleyBoy

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Debi

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zam220

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Coinuss

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Good Man

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carmenzu

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Phyrrura

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Pichman189

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Katie Dozier

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Pichman189

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RimworldDoctor

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Collin Moshman

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