Semprini said:
Nice and very helpful insights, thank you.
I noticed that you've mentioned "Over-limps", "Defends" and "Check-folds" (Depending on the situations ofc), but never "Raises".
Aren't there any situations/opportunities where we can raise with those hands?
We could always open from the button or maybe cutoff if it folds to us or say 1 limper, since there are a lot of checked flops that we can bluff with a c-bet. Late position opening range usually goes down to J9s, T8s, 97s. We can mix in a little lower now and then, depending on stacks, opponent tendencies. gut instinct.
But if we open 2.5x or 3x and end up in 4-way pot, we have to hit, so if there are 2 or 3 limpers this will force us to size up and then if we get called and end up 4-way, we have to hit pretty hard or we check-fold because bluffing multi-way sucks. So in these cases overlimp is better because we have to hit anyways and we only paid 1bb if we whiff and check-fold.
But if we open 2.5x or 3x and end up in 4-way pot, we have to hit, so if there are 2 or 3 limpers this will force us to size up and then if we get called and end up 4-way, we have to hit pretty hard or we check-fold because bluffing multi-way sucks. So in these cases overlimp is better because we have to hit anyways and we only paid 1bb if we whiff and check-fold.
Suited connectors play best in position with deep stacks (80BB+), where you have maximum leverage on post-flop streets. Out of position or with shorter stacks (<30BB), their implied odds drop significantly, making them easy folds to heavy pre-flop raises.
When thinking about those hands we ask ourselves are they strong multiway hands?
What do most limping players like to call with the highest frequency? Suited hands!
If we are going to get over flushed for stacks often, do we really want to be playing these hands multiway?
If the table is very passive and plays straight forwardly post flop yes, we can limp -so table dynamics determines how we play these hands
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What do most limping players like to call with the highest frequency? Suited hands!
If we are going to get over flushed for stacks often, do we really want to be playing these hands multiway?
If the table is very passive and plays straight forwardly post flop yes, we can limp -so table dynamics determines how we play these hands
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You do not have maximum draw equity with those hands multiway- you are assuming your V are folding all the better suited hands in your suit preflop often enough for your 6 high flush to be the nuts by the river.Semprini said:
HU you can assume you have high draw equity to draw to a flush most often but not multiway. Hu your post flop SPR is good for a draw as well but multiway pots are bigger on the flop so your SPR could put you in a -EV spot to draw at all.
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eetenor said:
I'm not assuming better suited fold. I never said nuts. We may not have nuts with a flush but we might have nuts with a straight, but we have the maximum number of draws with mid-connectors, 4 possible straights (as opposed to 3 with gappers, 2 with 2-gappers, etc) plus suited for flush. That's what I meant.
What we really don't want to see is the 4-flush, but 65s diamonds with 3 diamonds DOES win a LOT of pots, and beats sets and straights. If we don't want a flush with 65s, then why don't we fold it 100% and just play 65o then? Or should we just be a complete nit and fold anything that isn't 2 broadways? I'm being facetious of course, not trying to be disrespectful at all, but you get the idea. And I AM a big proponent of playing tight, but these hands have their use, just pick our spots wisely, and yes, if we do hit a flush we probably want pot control, and maybe even fold to a strong bet from nit.
The point is that if we never play these, we're leaving money on the table. It's a bit of a long shot but we can hit 12 outs or more with these not that uncommon. We wouldn't ever want any of those pesky straight-flushes would we? : P
Also, these hands tend to fold out of our ranges the shorter our stack gets, as they usually require betting post-flop, blockering or semi-bluffing, or check-evaluate-calling, etc, so we can't afford to get into that situation with 20bb. Deep stacks though give us a chance to build a monster in the lab. If our pot odds are good and implied odds are good, we have to try.
Suited connectors are definitely my preferred play. Especially when you have position and deep stacks. But you can easily get carried away with these! Generally I will open, but only call selective raises when there is good pot odds and stack depth. I try to not play these OOP too much. Sometimes I will limp depending on the situation, but never as a default play. ♠️😄najisami said:
As I stated and the reason I quoted you was you used the words "maximum equity" we do not have "maximum equity" with a 6 high draw at a high frequency multiway.Semprini said:
A fun study exercise is to see how strong a 6 high flush draw is vs possible other flush draws. So you count out all the other probable flush draws and rank your draw. All the probable not possible Axs Kxs Qxs Jxs Txs 9xs 8xs 7xs that is a lot of combos that could dominate us in a multiway pot. Our draw does not rank in the top 20.
You mention pot odds and implied odds, but you missed reverse implied odds. The full equation requires us to think of all of it.
That is why I suggest raising not going multiway- we lower the frequency of reverse implied odds.
All of this is of course long term poker thinking. In the short term variance can bail us out and we do not run into better flushes and win big pots in multiway deep stack poker.
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eetenor said:
So then forgive me if I used the wrong term. What is the term for having the most possible draws?
So you want to raise with mid-low suited connectors rather than flat defend, even though 65s is in no one's 3-bt range? Remember my first post says this:
Semprini said:
So as to overlimps, you disagree, should open. Fine then, but no flat defending multiway? 3-bet or just fold then?
Great question! These hands look pretty but they can be bankroll killers if you play them wrong.
My rule for 56s-89s:
1. Position is everything. I'm almost never playing these from EP/MP, especially at 8-max on WPT Global. My sweet spot is BTN and CO, or as an overlimp from SB/BB when the pot is already multiway and cheap.
2. Never open limp. If I'm first in, I raise. Limping makes your hand face up and you get isolated. If I raise 56s on the BTN, I can have AA, AK, and also 56s. It keeps me balanced and lets me win the pot pre or with a c-bet.
3. They are +EV only with DEEP stacks and implied odds. 40bb+ deep, multiway, closing the action. That's where Semprini is 100% right - we will check-fold A LOT on the flop. That's fine. We're not playing for top pair. We're playing to flop 2-pair+, big draws, or get out for cheap. The profit comes from the 1 time you stack an overpair with 78s on a 6-5-4 board.
4. Fold them a lot vs 3-bets unless you're BTN vs CO/BTN open and you're deep (
My rule for 56s-89s:
1. Position is everything. I'm almost never playing these from EP/MP, especially at 8-max on WPT Global. My sweet spot is BTN and CO, or as an overlimp from SB/BB when the pot is already multiway and cheap.
2. Never open limp. If I'm first in, I raise. Limping makes your hand face up and you get isolated. If I raise 56s on the BTN, I can have AA, AK, and also 56s. It keeps me balanced and lets me win the pot pre or with a c-bet.
3. They are +EV only with DEEP stacks and implied odds. 40bb+ deep, multiway, closing the action. That's where Semprini is 100% right - we will check-fold A LOT on the flop. That's fine. We're not playing for top pair. We're playing to flop 2-pair+, big draws, or get out for cheap. The profit comes from the 1 time you stack an overpair with 78s on a 6-5-4 board.
4. Fold them a lot vs 3-bets unless you're BTN vs CO/BTN open and you're deep (