Players’ perception is distorted.

Brigistul

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  • #1
Many players believe that the RNG ‘pulls exactly the card it needs’ on the river, especially when you see repeated 2-outers. The problem is that online poker works completely differently from live poker, and what looks ‘rigged’ is actually normal behavior for a cryptographic RNG.

1. The RNG doesn’t generate the deck only once.
On most modern platforms, the flop, turn, and river are generated at the moment they need to be displayed, not at the start of the hand. This means the river doesn’t ‘exist’ beforehand — it’s an independent event generated in real time.
2.Those ‘impossible’ rivers happen because the online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer, not because it’s rigged. When you combine the independence of each card + continuous reshuffling + huge hand volume + statistical clustering, the result is exactly what we see: improbable sequences that look scripted, but are completely normal in a random system.

3.We only remember the bad beats, not the moments when
we hit something improbable. That’s cognitive bias, not evidence of manipulation.
 
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G0930

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  • #2
Yup cognitive dissonance by the books!
poor self reflection that some people see themselves more skilled as they actually are ..

I never heard "rigged" from an actual winning player.
 
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monkeytilter

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  • #3
Citation/Analysis to support this please..
"online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer"
 
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  • #4
monkeytilter said:
Citation/Analysis to support this please..
"online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer"
from a mathematical and statistical perspective this is absolutely true.
While it feels counterintuitive because we can "see" a live dealer but cannot see the code of an RNG
Modern poker sites don't just use a simple math formula; they use "True Random Number Generators" (TRNGs) that pull from chaotic physical data
 
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  • #5
G0930 said:
from a mathematical and statistical perspective this is absolutely true.
While it feels counterintuitive because we can "see" a live dealer but cannot see the code of an RNG
Modern poker sites don't just use a simple math formula; they use "True Random Number Generators" (TRNGs) that pull from chaotic physical data
You've offered an opinion on an opinion not an analysis or a citation of an analysis.

1. How do you support the claim that an online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer?

2. When "Modern poker sites .. use "True Random Number Generators" (TRNGs) that pull from chaotic physical data"
Do they do this "pull" on every single deal? Or periodically seed a pseudo-random sequence that may be used on many deals?
Again can you cite sources so we know aren't just making suppositions here?
 
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  • #6
monkeytilter said:
You've offered an opinion on an opinion not an analysis or a citation of an analysis.

1. How do you support the claim that an online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer?

2. When "Modern poker sites .. use "True Random Number Generators" (TRNGs) that pull from chaotic physical data"
Do they do this "pull" on every single deal? Or periodically seed a pseudo-random sequence that may be used on many deals?
Again can you cite sources so we know aren't just making suppositions here?
The source is advanced mathematics:)
Studied mathematicians can explain that much better than I can .
There you go
 
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  • #7
Personally I believe that in terms of the dictionary definition of random, a live dealer shuffling is random, unless they are specifically trying not to be. As long as they are just dealing as fairly as possible, each card has the same possiblility of being in each place in the deck.

I'm not sure you can have more or less random, as even if they are doing their job badly its still random.

Don't like the part of that article where its says in 99% of cases the game is fair.....thats a very very poor level of fairness
 
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  • #8
G0930 said:
The source is advanced mathematics:)
Studied mathematicians can explain that much better than I can .
There you go
So you can't support the claim "online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer" , maybe Brig can.

It's quite funny the very article you linked states "PokerStars also employs a concept of “sufficient randomness.”"

From the Article: "Random number sequences are generated using multiple entropy sources and a pseudo-random algorithm. At PokerStars".
So a pseudo-random algorithm is used in generating sequences.

I see no support in that article that online deals are more random than live ones.
 
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  • #9
monkeytilter said:
So you can't support the claim "online RNG is actually more random than a live dealer" , maybe Brig can.
I did in my initial comment which should suffice if you can comprehend. but I doubt you would believe me if I elaborate further since you call my stated facts an opinion:)
How about you look for yourself?

SpanRmonka said:
Personally I believe that in terms of the dictionary definition of random, a live dealer shuffling is random, unless they are specifically trying not to be. As long as they are just dealing as fairly as possible, each card has the same possiblility of being in each place in the deck.

I'm not sure you can have more or less random, as even if they are doing their job badly its still random.

Don't like the part of that article where its says in 99% of cases the game is fair.....thats a very very poor level of fairness
the 1 % is human error mate :)
You have 0% with a TRNG
 
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  • #10
The volume of hands online is much higher than in live games, which makes improbable events (bad beats) seem more common, even though the system is mathematically fair.
 
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  • #11
moraeskvmi said:
The volume of hands online is much higher than in live games, which makes improbable events (bad beats) seem more common, even though the system is mathematically fair.
One of the main reasons some people think its rigged 👍🏼
 
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  • #12
G0930 said:
I did in my initial comment which should suffice if you can comprehend. but I doubt you would believe me if I elaborate further since you call my stated facts an opinion:)
How about you look for yourself?


the 1 % is human error mate :)
You have 0% with a TRNG
"from a mathematical and statistical perspective this is absolutely true."
You offered an unsupported opinion.

"How about you look for yourself?"

I'm not making a claim so that burden is not on me.

The point is the OP deals with "Distorted Perceptions" then makes a claim which could well be a distorted perception - it's not unreasonable to challenge this. Making unsupported claims does nothing to educate those with "distorted perceptions" and doesn't help with the "rigged" conspiracies.
 
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  • #13
SpanRmonka said:
Personally I believe that in terms of the dictionary definition of random, a live dealer shuffling is random, unless they are specifically trying not to be. As long as they are just dealing as fairly as possible, each card has the same possiblility of being in each place in the deck.

I'm not sure you can have more or less random, as even if they are doing their job badly its still random.

Don't like the part of that article where its says in 99% of cases the game is fair.....thats a very very poor level of fairness
It's a poorly written article but it's only a blog after all.

"Here’s a simple fact: there’s no direct evidence of rigged RNGs in poker rooms. In 99% of cases, the game is fair."
So there's indirect evidence?
Where does that 99% number come from?

Maybe they are trying to say online poker is generally fair, with a tiny minority of corrupt (most likely unregulated) operators - but a very clumsy way of doing it.
 
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  • #14
G0930 said:
Yup cognitive dissonance by the books!
poor self reflection that some people see themselves more skilled as they actually are ..

I never heard "rigged" from an actual winning player.
Correct! Most only see when they lose, especially on the river and forget when they win the pot on the same river!
 
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  • #15
monkeytilter said:
It's a poorly written article but it's only a blog after all.

"Here’s a simple fact: there’s no direct evidence of rigged RNGs in poker rooms. In 99% of cases, the game is fair."
So there's indirect evidence?
Where does that 99% number come from?

Maybe they are trying to say online poker is generally fair, with a tiny minority of corrupt (most likely unregulated) operators - but a very clumsy way of doing it.
I'm sorry you didn't understand who I dedicated this thread to! There are many players who chat, take screenshots and then post them on various social networks or even poker platform forums.Some even give up playing because of these repeated losses so arranged by Soft+RNG!Și încă ceva: nu ți-a cerut nimeni părerea in a cataloga dacă articolul este bun sau prost!
 
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  • #16
Brigistul said:
I'm sorry you didn't understand who I dedicated this thread to! There are many players who chat, take screenshots and then post them on various social networks or even poker platform forums.Some even give up playing because of these repeated losses so arranged by Soft+RNG!Și încă ceva: nu ți-a cerut nimeni părerea ta de specialist in a cataloga dacă articolul este bun sau prost!
Why do you think that I've misunderstood who your post is aimed at? I've merely questioned your assertion about live vs online dealing.

The blog I was referring to was this BTW, not your post..
 
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  • #17
monkeytilter said:
Why do you think that I've misunderstood who your post is aimed at? I've merely questioned your assertion about live vs online dealing.

The blog I was referring to was this BTW, not your post..
If you study you will find out that online is safer than live on safe and verified platforms! I'm going to publish something about this soon! A dealer can even cheat even if it seems to you that he is mixing the deck of cards correctly! So the RNG is definitely random!
 
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  • #18
interesting thread by someone who repeatedly stated here on the forum that he thinks online is rigged and fixed and this and that whatever. here a thead by op:


so what is it? who is actually "distorted" here? could it be...op?
 
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  • #19
monkeytilter said:
"Desde una perspectiva matemática y estadística, esto es absolutamente cierto."
Ofreciste una opinión sin fundamento.

"¿Qué tal si lo compruebas tú mismo?"

No estoy haciendo ninguna reclamación, por lo que esa responsabilidad no recae sobre mí.

La cuestión es que el autor original aborda el tema de las "percepciones distorsionadas" y luego hace una afirmación que bien podría ser una percepción distorsionada; no es descabellado cuestionarla. Hacer afirmaciones sin fundamento no contribuye a educar a quienes tienen "percepciones distorsionadas" ni ayuda a desmentir las teorías conspirativas sobre supuestos fraudes.
Let's say then that all you are doing is giving a very critical opinion of what someone else has published without contributing something that really has value. What's the point of criticizing something that someone else has said or commented on or published without adding anything new of value to what has already been published? Just wasting time
 
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  • #20
Brigistul said:
Muchos jugadores creen que el generador de números aleatorios (RNG) "saca justo la carta que necesita" en el river, especialmente cuando se ven dos outs repetidos. El problema es que el póker online funciona de forma completamente diferente al póker en vivo, y lo que parece "manipulado" es en realidad un comportamiento normal para un RNG criptográfico.

1. El generador de números aleatorios no crea la baraja una sola vez.
En la mayoría de las plataformas modernas, el flop, el turn y el river se generan en el momento preciso en que deben mostrarse, no al inicio de la mano. Esto significa que el river no existe de antemano, sino que es un evento independiente generado en tiempo real.
2. Esas secuencias "imposibles" ocurren porque el generador de números aleatorios en línea es, en realidad, más aleatorio que un crupier en vivo, no porque esté amañado. Cuando se combina la independencia de cada carta + el barajado continuo + un gran volumen de manos + la agrupación estadística, el resultado es exactamente lo que vemos: secuencias improbables que parecen guionizadas, pero que son completamente normales en un sistema aleatorio.

3. Solo recordamos los malos momentos, no aquellos en los que
logramos algo improbable. Eso es un sesgo cognitivo, no evidencia de manipulación.
I agree with you. Although I just think that there are too many whining players in the poker world. That they think they deserve to earn more than they earn. Even worse, they think they have a poker skill that they don't really have. Regards.
 
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  • #21
S!
monkeytilter said:
"from a mathematical and statistical perspective this is absolutely true."
You offered an unsupported opinion.

"How about you look for yourself?"

I'm not making a claim so that burden is not on me.

The point is the OP deals with "Distorted Perceptions" then makes a claim which could well be a distorted perception - it's not unreasonable to challenge this. Making unsupported claims does nothing to educate those with "distorted perceptions" and doesn't help with the "rigged" conspiracies.
Yes!from a statistical standpoint, the online RNG is more random than a physical shuffle.When I say that online poker is more random than live poker, I’m talking strictly about the mathematical mechanics of randomization, not about ‘feel’.A live dealer performs a physical shuffle that is imperfect and influenced by force, friction, card position, technique, and fatigue. That produces a human randomization with small but real biases.That doesn’t mean it’s ‘better’, ‘fairer’, or that you have to like it it just means it’s closer to pure randomness.
 
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  • #22
Brigistul said:
S!

Yes!from a statistical standpoint, the online RNG is more random than a physical shuffle.When I say that online poker is more random than live poker, I’m talking strictly about the mathematical mechanics of randomization, not about ‘feel’.A live dealer performs a physical shuffle that is imperfect and influenced by force, friction, card position, technique, and fatigue. That produces a human randomization with small but real biases.That doesn’t mean it’s ‘better’, ‘fairer’, or that you have to like it it just means it’s closer to pure randomness.
Can you give an example illustrating the difference?
If we examined the deck shuffled by a dealer and compared it to one "shuffled" by an online RNG what could be observed? (from a "statistical standpoint" of course:ROFLMAO:).

Can you even describe what "more random" even means? Again if I gave you two decks to examine could you say which one was "more random"?

If "pure" randomness is a criteria why do online sites use pseudo-randomly generated sequences (according to the article GOP linked)?
 
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  • #23
Not sure its more random than live dealers but the biggest issue i see people who think it is rigged is they really don't play live enough to know what happens online happen live to. Go to the wsop and play 10hours this year in a day. You may see 250 to 300 hundred hand if lucky. Play 10 hours online where you can play over 60 hands a hour and add in the multi-table aspect. you can see over 2400 hands a day if 4 tabling and more.
 
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  • #24
Oh look it's another thread proclaiming that RNGs are random without any evidence. Kind of like inverted rigged threads. RNGs are audited to the extent that they deal cards with appropriate probabilities, which includes player hole cards and community cards. There's no auditing of any "luck" effects on accounts, such as what happens after depositing or with brand new accounts that run hot. There's no auditing of the probabilities of certain boards or outcomes showing up at different points in tournaments or cash games, such as near the bubble or when a cash table's rake rate drops below average. But okay 👍 let's just say it's all random because that's what the companies say (and of course it feels better to feel safe).
 
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  • #25
RNG IS A COMPLETE RIGGED GARBAGE, AS RIGGED AS IT COULD BE.
Go tell your DELUSIONAL CHRISTMAS STORIES somewhere else.
I don't fall for this HUGE PILE OF BULLSHIT anymore.
 
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