Random Number Generators (RNG)- Are they really that random?

Stringy · Jan 16, 2022

for me pokerstars deffo feels like it's not rng sometimes

zipocool · Jan 16, 2022

well, until the opposite is guaranteed, we will assume that the actions of the RNG are random, of course there will always be suspicions on this topic, but I repeat here we need evidence, and so far no one has provided them

lexyyxel · Jan 16, 2022

zipocool said:
well, until the opposite is guaranteed, we will assume that the actions of the RNG are random, of course there will always be suspicions on this topic, but I repeat here we need evidence, and so far no one has provided them

yeap many sites provide verification links (evidence)

lexyyxel · Jan 16, 2022

Stringy said:
for me pokerstars deffo feels like it's not rng sometimes

The random itself feels like not xd

ATL2000 · Jan 16, 2022

I raise and call with aces in my hand all the time, and more often than not there is no ace on the flop. The same goes for suited cards not flopping a draw.

Am I the exception to the rule or something?

puzzlefish · Jan 16, 2022

fundiver199 said:
And As5d can also make a wheel straight or the nut flush on a 4-spade board. Actually in this specific 4-way all-in, As5d was not in much worse shape than the two AK hands, because so many of the aces and kings were dead. Here are the exact equities from Equilap:

As5d: 9,78%
QdQs: 64,01%
AcKh: 14,17%
AdKs: 12,04%

Note that the two AKs have different equities. This is because, AcKh has two live flushdraws, while AdKs only has one. And of course something with a 9,78% likelyhood actually happening is not proof, that the card generation is rigged. Claims like these are just silly, and I dont know, if people making them are actually taking it serious themselfes? Its like saying, that if it rains on average 3 days per month, and it ends up raining the day, you are getting married, then that must be some kind of conspiracy against you

I don't know fundiver, what if you get married 12 times and each time it rains on your wedding day? Then are you just unlucky?

Herkstwin · Jan 18, 2022

dpolerio said:
They are random in the sense that the house doesn't care who wins.

But the cards are definitely not random insofar as the amount of action you see on the board and the frequency with which the hand leader changes from the flop to the turn to the river. It is in the room's favor to deal players strong hands so there is more action, hence more knockouts, thus more players buying into other tournaments....

Wow - this has to be the top prize for reasons why poker sites are rigged!!
Legit poker sites use TRNG's. They don't need to rig or juice the cards to generate action. Even if they were to use PRNG's, the randomness of 52 cards is limited. An Ace can hit the river and beat your pocket Kings 4 times out of every 52 hands. Even the one-outer has an almost 2% chance! That's poker.

Herkstwin · Jan 18, 2022

puzzlefish said:
I don't know fundiver, what if you get married 12 times and each time it rains on your wedding day? Then are you just unlucky?

Your mother has to stop doing her famous rain dance at the party the night before the weddings.

oroochimaru · Jan 18, 2022

I've witnessed some crazy table scenarios the past couple years. For a long time, I believed it was altered and that it was done expressly to take away my hard earned money. As I became more experienced, I came to the realization that there is no real manipulation, thats just how online poker RNG works.
Saying things like the software is rigged or the cards aren't random when playing on major online poker sites like PokerStars or GG Poker is ludicrous. If you wanna win an tournament, you must play without flaws and rely on a lot of "running good luck."

Poker Orifice · Jan 19, 2022

Ice Wolf said:
Randomly gives winning hands to loose players and chip stack leaders, all about that rake.

So be the big stack = ez game!

fundiver199 · Jan 19, 2022

blueskies said:
Do I know ACR or what? It's very hard to win there by playing proper poker.

Kind of a silly thing to say, when you have never even tried. Maybe you have played some cash games, I have no way of checking that. But according to your sharkscope profile you have only played 11 normal buy-in games (all SnGs), since you started playing on ACR in 2018. Which is not exactly a large enough sample to draw any kind of conclusions what so ever

fundiver199 · Jan 19, 2022

puzzlefish said:
I don't know fundiver, what if you get married 12 times and each time it rains on your wedding day? Then are you just unlucky?

If you get married 12 times, then you have much bigger problems in your life than rain on your wedding day

On a more serious notes people making posts like that QQ vs. AK vs. AK vs. A5 hand are always cherry picking. Its never "I have played 500.000 hands on XX site, and I am running YY BB below expected all-in EV, which is so far out the bell curve, that the probability of this being random is only 0.00001%. And for that reason I suspect, that the RNG is rigged". Its always "there was this hand, where someone made a bad play and got rewarded for it = it must be rigged".

Pablo22 · Jan 19, 2022

If they are not random the site is no good

Geksan_87 · Jan 19, 2022

Sometimes it seems that all this happens for a reason, especially when you lose 2 times in a row with pocket tops, well, if you take the tournament, then nothing comes in for an hour, and it happens the other way around that you also take the ban with garbage....

JayJaylokko · Jan 19, 2022

I believe they are random, we human suck at math and probability

ruco72 · Jan 19, 2022

I want to believe it's completely random (at least as random as any artificial algorithm can be). But, sometimes it feels like the system is a little bias into making you more prone to bad beats once you reach a certain level or amount of wins/profit...

puzzlefish · Jan 19, 2022

fundiver199 said:
If you get married 12 times, then you have much bigger problems in your life than rain on your wedding day

On a more serious notes people making posts like that QQ vs. AK vs. AK vs. A5 hand are always cherry picking. Its never "I have played 500.000 hands on XX site, and I am running YY BB below expected all-in EV, which is so far out the bell curve, that the probability of this being random is only 0.00001%. And for that reason I suspect, that the RNG is rigged". Its always "there was this hand, where someone made a bad play and got rewarded for it = it must be rigged".

The thing is that if you look at those more serious threads with AIEV, it's still the same result in the end. The person just runs under AIEV, so they're just unlucky. Or AIEV is not a useful stat to track. Or some other explanation. It just makes no difference in the end whether it's a thread backed by stats or just a simple vent about bad luck on a small sample of hands.

Anyway, back to the marriage thing. You would assume getting married 12 times means that you would get divorced 12 times too, right? But it could simply be 12 wedding ceremonies (renewal of vows) that just happen to get rained out. In the real world we would think the couple is unlucky with the rain. Rationally it doesn't make sense for the weather to be "rigged" against a couple. But it's not the same with software running on some server, sending signals to display cards on monitors.

funnyhook3 · Jan 19, 2022

Maybe some poker rooms have their own RNG scams, but in theory, randomness should be the same and fair everywhere, especially in group and popular rooms

zapadlol · Jan 19, 2022

Hi all! if you believe in this, then why is there no percentage for the victory generated already for you on a flash player?

Kennemelo · Jan 19, 2022

funnyhook3 said:
Maybe some poker rooms have their own RNG scams, but in theory, randomness should be the same and fair everywhere, especially in group and popular rooms

I agree that everyone's algorithms are anatomy, but I think that each room has its own system

GalimullinI · Jan 19, 2022

I think everything is fair in the top rooms after all

I heard this explanation somewhere about the dishonesty of the RNG. """""In live poker, there are never such frequent moves as in online poker, and therefore the RNG is falsifying..." The answer to this statement reassured me - "In live poker, 60 hands in 1 hour online poker 200.” It's just that there are many more hands in online poker, and therefore improbable moves are more common.

theRaven68 · Jan 19, 2022

Many times I have asked myself this question but i believe that they are mostly honest because otherwise i wouldn't play

dgroes · Jan 19, 2022

Herkstwin said:
Wow - this has to be the top prize for reasons why poker sites are rigged!!
Legit poker sites use TRNG's. They don't need to rig or juice the cards to generate action. Even if they were to use PRNG's, the randomness of 52 cards is limited. An Ace can hit the river and beat your pocket Kings 4 times out of every 52 hands. Even the one-outer has an almost 2% chance! That's poker.

???? maybe we do see patterns and give too much meaning

Herkstwin · Jan 19, 2022

dgroes said:
???? maybe we do see patterns and give too much meaning

I think you've got it right. We take our small samples and extrapolate our observations to imply that the poker demons are working against us.

fundiver199 · Jan 20, 2022

puzzlefish said:
The thing is that if you look at those more serious threads with AIEV, it's still the same result in the end. The person just runs under AIEV, so they're just unlucky. Or AIEV is not a useful stat to track. Or some other explanation. It just makes no difference in the end whether it's a thread backed by stats or just a simple vent about bad luck on a small sample of hands.

It makes no difference, because nobody ever present stats, that actually prove anything. People show, they are running below AIEV but never to an extend, which is completely unreasonable from a statistical point of view like the winrate of Potripper or Mike Postle, which were multible standard deviations from the mean. Or they claim, their AA was cracked 4 times in a row, which assuming 80% equity is supposed to happen every 138k hands. So obviously anyone playing a significant amount of poker will experience this not once but multible times, and it proves absolutely nothing.

Random Number Generators (RNG)- Are they really that random?

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