Here's a situation for you all to think about...

I apologise then Tenbob - I must just be getting tetchy in my old age! The flame wasn't even against me LOL!

Apology accepted Rob, but in no way am I saying that im superior to anyone on this site, especially Chicubs, i enjoy reading his posts and I feel that he adds to my knowledge of the game.

My flame was in no way personal, (it was a bloody joke), and no i am not trying to emulate any other poster on this site.

Chicubs, just to retort your post, i am a 28 year old self-employed professional with a maths/physics degree under my belt. My bankroll if your interested is currently over $2,000. And i dont play grudge matches against anyone, anytime.

Give it a month or so, and ill gladly play you in a series of heads-up matches. When we can sit down afterwards like adults, and discuss how we both played and maybe debate out some of the hands on cardschat. Heads up is an area of my game that needs vast improvement.

Sorry to distract from the initial thread with a joke gone wrong, but it still dosnt distract from the issue, i still wouldnt call with 64o, or indeed 63o.

Saying you should call in this situation because of "pot odds" is like calling a bet when you know you are beat because you're "pot-commited". Just doesn't make a bit of sense to me to throw chips away like that. Maybe if they were bigger connectors, but I still say, keep that guys stack small, don't give him the chance to double up, and put him on your radar to knock him out another hand with your chip stack, when you have the hand to do it.

Why would you take the chance of letting him build his stack back up to possibly come back and bite you in the ass? The old addage "a chip and chair" is sound advice to remember...I can tell you from experience. I've been down to about 20 chips, bided my time and came back to win the thing.

I guess I'm just not as bright as chicubs and cannot grasp the concept of why it would ever be a good idea to not protect your lead....

I'm glad that there are some posters on this site who actually have enough knowledge to contribute to an argument like this. The purpose of this post was to spark a debate, and I think that so far it has accomplished this goal. This site needs more posts like this. I think that what has been discussed might improve some posters play, especially in the area of tournament strategy.

Now here's a great quote to dispel all debates such as this. John Stewart Mill states that "no individual has a monopoly of knowledge, therefore it is an exercise in arrogance not to tolerate the expression of individual beliefs. For how are we to know that are views are correct, whilst the views of others are wrong."

Sorry about that, I am currently perusing a book on Liberal ideology.

chicubs1616 said:

I'm glad that there are some posters on this site who actually have enough knowledge to contribute to an argument like this. The purpose of this post was to spark a debate, and I think that so far it has accomplished this goal. This site needs more posts like this. I think that what has been discussed might improve some posters play, especially in the area of tournament strategy.

Click to expand...

While your enlarged ego at times gets on my nerves, on this point I do have to agree with you, sooo *sigh*...here goes...Good Job! :congrats: Wow. That was hard for me...
But seriously, this is a good thread, we've needed one like this for awhile. I am not good at coming up with these "scenarios", and I'm not much into quoting odds. I say just play the game and use common sense. It's worked out for me so far. I have to wait for my fellow Cardchatters to come up with a thread like this one so that I can contribute my two cents. :icon_quee

While your enlarged ego at times gets on my nerves

Click to expand...

If I am coming off as having a big head, that is not my intention... I know I am not the most knowledgeable player on here by any means, I am just trying to improve the overall quality of the site by discussing some topics that haven't ever really been covered on here.

Don't worry too much about that. You're obviously a young man who is very sure of himself, and there is nothing wrong with that. You do make comments at times that make it seem as if you think your knowledge is far superior than that of the rest of us, but hey, if it sparks a good discussion, more power to ya! And you do have some quality info to offer, so keep it up!
(And don't mind me...having some hormonal issues this morning...Hey, I'll admit it! LOL)

Well, since the "fight" is over, i´m going to reply to the original thread.
Saying that if you have a good EV you must call on every situation it´s wrong. When you´re talking about EV you´re applying the term "long term". So a situation when it´s not profitable to apply EV is if you´re in a tournament and you are the one who is all in. In that case there isn´t long term. If you lose, you´re out of the money and that´s all. And even if you win you may not reach the money. The tournaments are very particular. You can apply all what you know about EV just if you have a very big stack (about 4 or 5 times the size of your opponents) and you cannot be the one who is all in.
Saying that, in the situation that chicubs gave you have a comfortable stack that in relation to your opponent stack (i´m talking just about the guy who went all in, who is your only opponent at that hand) is bigger by ~6 times. So this is a situation where you can apply the EV. Applying that, it would be an easy call. But as some of you said, there are some factors in the tournament which makes you doubt about the call. First of all, you don´t want to double up him. But also you don´t want to lose any hand, you don´t want to finish in the bubble, you don´t want to vote today at gamefaqs.com for Sephiroth (come on Link!), etc. At poker you must take some risks if you want to win, specially in a NL tournament. Of course those risks must be "justifiable". You don´t want to call with 63o if it´s going to cost you 3/4 of your stack and you´re sure your opponent has something like high pair. But the risk chicubs mentioned is justifiable because you can clearly apply EV. You´re going to still have a nice stack if you lose.
In relation to being near the bubble, i think it doesn´t affect too much the decision. When you´re near the bubble in my opinion you should loosen up a bit because everyone becomes more tight, and at that point it´s very good to steal some blinds.

p.s: I don´t have too much experience in tournaments and that´s why my opinion here is probably wrong.

If you are going to call with 64 suited here, why not with 64 offsuit??? If the cards are suited or not doesn't change the odds that much where it would be incorrect for you to call either way...

I said I wouldn't call here.. looking for a gut shot straight, better odds of catching the flush. The suited connectors give you better odds instead of chasing a gut shot straight.

Yet like I previously said your ahead of the avg stack. Thinking here that you must be at least ahead of 10 other people who are on the bubble. So it leaves you for another fight for later on. Also based apon this person who went all-in, he is going to be pushing chips in for a little bit. Trying to constantly double up cause he is also on the bubble. He at the moment has 2 options, going out at the bubble or making it. Now making him a loose agressive player (maniac). It is also still early in the ballgame because after the BB you also become UTG. You still have to act 1st..

Patience, Power and Position always plays a factor.

I said I wouldn't call here.. looking for a gut shot straight, better odds of catching the flush. The suited connectors give you better odds instead of chasing a gut shot straight.

Click to expand...

I know you said you would not call, but your main way of winning this hand isnt by hitting a straight or a flush, it is by catching a pair when your opponent misses. If your opponent has AK, your best bet of winning the hand is hitting a 6 or 4...your total odds of winning the hand against an unpaired hand like AK would be 35% at best. The odds that I posted are for the worst scenario (if he doesnt have a pair)...you have 64 suited and he has AK of the same suit...so the odds justify a call.

It is also still early in the ballgame because after the BB you also become UTG. You still have to act 1st..

Click to expand...

This doesn't make any sense...

If you mean if you fold, you become the SB next hand, not UTG.
If you mean if you call you have to act first you missed an obvious point...Your opponent is all-in! The decision for this hand is only made preflop...you don't have to act after the flop (its a heads-up pot...).

The BEST answer is call. Kinda depends on what you are trying to do in a tournament; are you looking to win or just place. If you want to WIN the tournament you call if you are simply looking to get into the money you fold. I saw a post that said it is almost a no-brainer fold just the opposite is correct! NEVER miss a cheap chance to bang someone out of a tourney. Cubbies has done an wonderful job of explaining the numbers. If you are comfortable just getting into the money then folding is justified. Tournaments are all about WINS IMHO and to WIN you have to run hands in situations like this. Unless of course you are hitting every single flop the whole tourney.

fold.....

i really dont need another person cursing me out on a table for playing "Rags".

then if i ever dare copy paste the logs to the hand analysis, i'de get shit from everyone here too =].

Remember, only you can prevent bad-beat stories.

i really dont need another person cursing me out on a table for playing "Rags".

Click to expand...

This shouldn't be a reason to fold...if your table cusses you out for a call here, they don't understand correct tournament strategy (if you are going for a win).

then if i ever dare copy paste the logs to the hand analysis, i'de get shit from everyone here too =].

Click to expand...

You wouldn't get shit from everyone, just those who don't quite understand the reasoning behind your play...

... i was trying to be funny.

looks like i failed miserably :-/

LOL.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

You're in BB which is 2000, Button has 2003 chips and pushes, SB folds. You immediately feel stupid for saying you'd never call a push with 64o unless someone was forced all in. Your "humorous" post was all well and good except for the facts that (a) it's 64o, and (b) you obviously have no clue about tournament strategy if you think the decision is so clear cut you can go around writing up joke posts about it. Oh, and (c) that's so obviously copy/pasted from somewhere with bits altered.

Re. the original question, it's right on the borderline. If my stack is any shorter or it's costing me any more to call, I fold. If I have a bigger stack or the push is for less, I probably call. I don't think you're giving up/gaining much whichever option you choose. I probably lean towards a call here more in the hope that there's someone who's silly enough still hanging around to give me more action because I'm "that guy who called a push with 64o" than the fact that I think it's mathematically the best move.

Click to expand...

at this point in the game, i would be playing very tight. you are not getting the return on the call to invest in this hand rickyd

at this point in the game, i would be playing very tight

Click to expand...

And I would be taking all of your blinds... Playing tight near the bubble or late in a tournament is not a good strategy if your objective is to WIN.

you are not getting the return on the call to invest in this hand

Click to expand...

You have got to be kidding me...read the whole thread and check out the math...a call is justified here (read: you ARE getting a good 'return' on a call to invest in this hand)

Sounds like you hurt his feelings, tenbob.
Normally, even with the pot odds, I would not call here. BUT, it would also depend on how this guy plays in general, what his attitude is, if he just took a big beat to get to short stack, or if he has been getting that way from the blinds waiting for a big hand. Lots of things to consider, other than and including pot odds. Observe or ask any top pro, and I you will find that pot odds aren't the only thing they make their decisions on.

Dan

I'm just posting here to say rofl @ my condescending post to Liam before I move this to the archives. Memories of 2005 ~ I'm such a bad person.