You should bet bigger not to drive people but to make sure that when they hit there flush the times you win will still be much more than when you lose. And you may not be driving out flush draws anyway. Sometimes you just can't get paid off. I always fast play sets with a flush draw out there. Betting and raising.
I dont understand your argument at all, its pretty standard. Who would ever fold to a 2/3rd pot bet on a flop with a flush draw.grafkarow said:
Say the pot is 100 and your facing a 66 chip bet so 66/166 is your pot odds, so thats an easy call on the flop. And yes i do think that tthe implied odds will pay off, not everytime but in the long run considering i play 5nl and the players are spewy as hell.
If it doesnt hit on the turn then fold most cases unless of sourse the pot is still pretty small and you know your up against a fish who your sure will stack off if the river hits a flush or at least call your valuebet.
These types of draws have definately made up for themselves for when they have hit for me over probably 100000+ hands. I dont know the exact amount as i just started using a hud and the server where i have the most volume only tells me how many raked hands i have played and doesnt support a hud but 15k+raked since october 10.
With this being said i wouldnt suggest that you play every opponent like this. You just have to know which ones serve you the right implied odds. I explain this to my brother who is a 1000nl grinder and has been playing professionally for 8 years and he says well ya if you feel your getting the right implied odds then go with it. Ive told him my strategy and he hasnt told me to do otherwise.
If you think im wrong well sorry to hear that but ive proven to myself that it works.
But i mean if your going to fold a flush draw on a flop then suited cards would be irrelevent.
^^no^^
Explain?Tell me how they are relevant if your not going to gamble when your on the draw on a flop
I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer
^^^Now the red part is rediculous^^
How? Suited cards are good for basically implied odds.You shouldnt ever be in the hand even if your going to fold the flop. Also to call a 2/3rd pot bet you should 39% equity+, usually with a flush draw you have redraws and therefore you usually have more then 39% on the flop in general. Also the implied odds definately make up for the missing 3% if you have no redraws other then flush outs. On top of that if you put your opponent on a set then you know its going to be very hard for them to fold so that increases your implied odds great deal. Please explain how anything im saying here is wrong. If anything is ridiculous about what i said its that im slightly suggesting the thread starter gamble with a 10 outer.
^^no^^
Explain?Tell me how they are relevant if your not going to gamble when your on the draw on a flop
I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer
^^^Now the red part is rediculous^^
How? Suited cards are good for basically implied odds.You shouldnt ever be in the hand even if your going to fold the flop. Also to call a 2/3rd pot bet you should 39% equity+, usually with a flush draw you have redraws and therefore you usually have more then 39% on the flop in general. Also the implied odds definately make up for the missing 3% if you have no redraws other then flush outs. On top of that if you put your opponent on a set then you know its going to be very hard for them to fold so that increases your implied odds great deal. Please explain how anything im saying here is wrong. If anything is ridiculous about what i said its that im slightly suggesting the thread starter gamble with a 10 outer.
This is why i say donkbet your set. This guy had absolutely no read what so ever, probably thoiught i had complete air as i was donkbetting. Also he sucks, raising with a2o lmao. I was also going to fold due to my shortstack preflop but then he got 1 more caller so easy call now.
Seat 1: dking111 (€1.29 in chips)
Seat 2: Serioussex (€1.95 in chips)
Seat 3: TopFish (€3.80 in chips)
Seat 4: fagi64 (€2.61 in chips)
Seat 5: cavallo90 (€4.17 in chips)
cavallo90: posts small blind €0.02
dking111: posts big blind €0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dking111 [3s 3c]
Dealt to Serioussex [** **]
Dealt to TopFish [** **]
Dealt to fagi64 [** **]
Dealt to cavallo90 [** **]
Serioussex: raises €0.07 to €0.12
TopFish: folds
fagi64: calls €0.12
cavallo90: folds
dking111: calls €0.07
*** FLOP *** [Ah 3h 6s]
dking111: bets €0.20
Serioussex: calls €0.20
fagi64: folds
*** TURN *** [Ah 3h 6s] [9d]
dking111: bets €0.35
Serioussex: bets €1.63 and is all-in
dking111: raises €0.62 to €0.97 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (€0.66) returned to Serioussex
Serioussex: shows [Ad 2h]
dking111: shows [3s 3c]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 3h 6s 9d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dking111 wins €2.56 with three of a kind, threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot €2.72 | Rake €0.16
Board [Ah 3h 6s 9d Jh]
Seat 1: dking111 (€1.29 in chips)
Seat 2: Serioussex (€1.95 in chips)
Seat 3: TopFish (€3.80 in chips)
Seat 4: fagi64 (€2.61 in chips)
Seat 5: cavallo90 (€4.17 in chips)
cavallo90: posts small blind €0.02
dking111: posts big blind €0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dking111 [3s 3c]
Dealt to Serioussex [** **]
Dealt to TopFish [** **]
Dealt to fagi64 [** **]
Dealt to cavallo90 [** **]
Serioussex: raises €0.07 to €0.12
TopFish: folds
fagi64: calls €0.12
cavallo90: folds
dking111: calls €0.07
*** FLOP *** [Ah 3h 6s]
dking111: bets €0.20
Serioussex: calls €0.20
fagi64: folds
*** TURN *** [Ah 3h 6s] [9d]
dking111: bets €0.35
Serioussex: bets €1.63 and is all-in
dking111: raises €0.62 to €0.97 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (€0.66) returned to Serioussex
Serioussex: shows [Ad 2h]
dking111: shows [3s 3c]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 3h 6s 9d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dking111 wins €2.56 with three of a kind, threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot €2.72 | Rake €0.16
Board [Ah 3h 6s 9d Jh]
Well you have a problem in your statements switching between the set and flush hands which makes it a little difficult to keep up with your train of thought.
Set hand, deff skew pot odds for flush draw, to my understanding if he is going to call the flop with a flush draw then you have implied odds on the turn if it's dead. I'm in Jusumguy's corner on this though I want to take this small pot down early even though I'm a 4-1 favorite.
If I'm the 4 card flush draw I don't have implied odds against the set because it's obvious what I have when I bet or raise the turn when my flush hits.
The set: If you had set and 3rd suited card falls on turn and face a massive bet or raise would you still push the set early in a tournement? Even facing the smooth call you are now 1-4 drawing that FH or quads. Only an idiot would check the made flush.
Set hand, deff skew pot odds for flush draw, to my understanding if he is going to call the flop with a flush draw then you have implied odds on the turn if it's dead. I'm in Jusumguy's corner on this though I want to take this small pot down early even though I'm a 4-1 favorite.
If I'm the 4 card flush draw I don't have implied odds against the set because it's obvious what I have when I bet or raise the turn when my flush hits.
The set: If you had set and 3rd suited card falls on turn and face a massive bet or raise would you still push the set early in a tournement? Even facing the smooth call you are now 1-4 drawing that FH or quads. Only an idiot would check the made flush.
I agree that your implied odds are even greater, but against a set or even tptk or even tpwk in microstakes you still have quite good implied odds for sure, people just stack off easier at micros, or at least call off a good portion with some of the above types of hands. About 1/4 of my bankroll over the past 5 months has been made with made draws against fish. I get burned horribly somedays with them but the times i dont easily more then make up for it.PotluckXXI said:
sorry if my communication sucks(i get that alot so bare with me). No i wouldnt think an idiot would check a flush, i do check a flush on the turn sometimes and of course there comes a risk but if the board doesnt pair on river then it makes it easier to stack someone because it disguises your hand enough and whether or not you agree i know so because ive done so on so many occasions.PotluckXXI said:
Yes i agree that its obvious of what you have on the turn when you bet/raise, thats why i would check against some opponents but against the idiot opponents who dont have enough discipline to fold then nothings obvious to them and you can get your whole stack in against there set or tptk, i gurantee a fish will call with those. Thats why i say dont play suited connectors or suited aces as much against some opponents. but there great when you feel you have the right implied odds.
😀 ok mainly im talking about the implied odds of having a flush draw against a made hand, whether that made hand be tptk or a set. I apologize if im not making the greatest sense but you know im a degenarte who barely made it through high school 😛PotluckXXI said:
Flush hand
Yeah, I can see your argument, I don't think giving a set a chance to make a FH with a free card is good, if the guy is a fish he'll still call with the set I don't think an average player will call on the flush board. If he's good and misses the river he'll fold to any bet, while a fish may still call. There is always the possibility of a larger flush working against you, see Cuttlefishes 2nd nut flush vs. nut flush.
Yeah, I can see your argument, I don't think giving a set a chance to make a FH with a free card is good, if the guy is a fish he'll still call with the set I don't think an average player will call on the flush board. If he's good and misses the river he'll fold to any bet, while a fish may still call. There is always the possibility of a larger flush working against you, see Cuttlefishes 2nd nut flush vs. nut flush.
Only an idiot would check the made flush.
i understand why you say this but now im insulted. Ok no im not your entitled to your opinion, but ya for the most part like i said earlier people in microstakes simply just do not fold sets.... i see alot of people slowplaying them on wet boards(chk/calling, checking to give free cards) so betting a made flush on a turn is by far the best idea but against a player who has a bit more skill you might want to wait until the river, especially if you have position because now they might think i checked the turn because i was afraid of the flush and then villian with his set can now valuebet, i can then raise and stack him 9/10 times, but of course checking the turn there would be very risky and i totally understand why you think only an idiot would do so and yes ive been burned several times by checking or flatting with nuts on the turn and again, for the times i havent been burned, it has definately made up for the times i have been burned.
i understand why you say this but now im insulted. Ok no im not your entitled to your opinion, but ya for the most part like i said earlier people in microstakes simply just do not fold sets.... i see alot of people slowplaying them on wet boards(chk/calling, checking to give free cards) so betting a made flush on a turn is by far the best idea but against a player who has a bit more skill you might want to wait until the river, especially if you have position because now they might think i checked the turn because i was afraid of the flush and then villian with his set can now valuebet, i can then raise and stack him 9/10 times, but of course checking the turn there would be very risky and i totally understand why you think only an idiot would do so and yes ive been burned several times by checking or flatting with nuts on the turn and again, for the times i havent been burned, it has definately made up for the times i have been burned.
Thats what makes them fish lol, even some average players will call sometimes with a set, depends on what you think your opponent will bet with and how much he bets and so on. Ive been burned soo many times flopping 2nd nutflush against nut flush. What do you d in that spot lol.....lose money, i dunno how to fold K high flush.PotluckXXI said:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/big-game-weekend-i-need-help-203789/
LOL I wrote the idiot part before you posted you may check the flush, sorry. That goes back to the "it depends" argument, I have stated I would never limp limp with AA but even that does have an exception.
I agree with you in some respects. I'll never be a fan of giving a free card unless I'm way ahead (quads, sf hands, Nut FH with no quads possibility). Against bad or average I will always raise, but if I know my Villain is good then the check made flush is somewhat risky but could have implied odds you are still the favorite by a long shot, but you would have to be IP and hope he will bet when the river is dead. Facing a reraise the set (if he's good or average) will surely fold, now really good players may call because they know you may be bluffing the flush representation if they think you are really good.
LOL I wrote the idiot part before you posted you may check the flush, sorry. That goes back to the "it depends" argument, I have stated I would never limp limp with AA but even that does have an exception.
I agree with you in some respects. I'll never be a fan of giving a free card unless I'm way ahead (quads, sf hands, Nut FH with no quads possibility). Against bad or average I will always raise, but if I know my Villain is good then the check made flush is somewhat risky but could have implied odds you are still the favorite by a long shot, but you would have to be IP and hope he will bet when the river is dead. Facing a reraise the set (if he's good or average) will surely fold, now really good players may call because they know you may be bluffing the flush representation if they think you are really good.
Bottom Line
No ones folding a flush draw in fact players push all in on flush draws. Sames as straight draws. They hit so often that you are probably the underdog with set vs flush draw after flop.I really do not care what the odds calculator says on this its totally irrelevant. Bottom line, no one is folding a flush draw if you do you're not a player. The only thing you can do is keep the betting to a minimum so as not to lose your stack. You are not going to bet anyone off a flush draw if they are four to after the flop period.
No ones folding a flush draw in fact players push all in on flush draws. Sames as straight draws. They hit so often that you are probably the underdog with set vs flush draw after flop.I really do not care what the odds calculator says on this its totally irrelevant. Bottom line, no one is folding a flush draw if you do you're not a player. The only thing you can do is keep the betting to a minimum so as not to lose your stack. You are not going to bet anyone off a flush draw if they are four to after the flop period.
why? donk betting is prone to getting raised. Do you really want to be getting raised with a 9 outer. I can see this donk betting with flush draw if it has extra outs suchas two overcards or straight draw outs(gutshot or open ended).baudib1 said:
huh? a set is a huge dog against any draw, against a 15 outer i believe a set has 67% equity on the flop. I have folded many draws on the turn, even 20 outers if deep stacked enough. As for shoving straight draws or flush draws,(unless shortstacked and having the possibility of 2 callers)that is a leak and i love playing against those types. The only way im shoving a draw on the flop is if its hu and im facing a donkbet or if i can get 2 callers and im shortstacked(both examples i have to be shortstacked enough). Odds calculators are 100% acurate and helpful for players who dont quite know there expected equity.calicard said:
ya im fine with hearing that you would be an idiot for checking a flush, i just feel that its a worthy risk at times. As for the aces ya it depends, i rarely ever limp with AA, if i do i have to be at a loose aggro table and expect to be raised by someone, otherwise its suicide.PotluckXXI said:
Well put, so i guess you should mention that you need a good read on your opponents. Me, however playing in micros i dont seem to come across many who will raise a donkbet then fold. I dunno though, getting 100bbs in on a flop with just a fd is a scary spot and i just dont see how i profit off of it. If shortstacked im doing that quite often though with or without overcards or redraws to go with it. I guess what it comes down to mostly is just knowing your opponents and having good reads on them in that spot.baudib1 said:
gotta go for value there ... with a set you are a significant favorite ... i understand that you don't wanna get donked by a donk so early when you know your more solid play will likely get you deep into the tourney with or without a nice early pot, but you can always play it safe if the third suit hits and they are still representing ...
i would want someone to have a flush draw there, so i could get some action ... and hey, think of implied odds .... what if their flush card is your boat card ... ship 'em donk!!! ...
i don't have a problem with check raise, but i think your raise was a little more than i would have put in ... a good player with a flush draw folds either way, but a donk is gonna call no matter how much, so you are raising for value ... you don't want to get too many chips in just in case they suk out on you
i would want someone to have a flush draw there, so i could get some action ... and hey, think of implied odds .... what if their flush card is your boat card ... ship 'em donk!!! ...
i don't have a problem with check raise, but i think your raise was a little more than i would have put in ... a good player with a flush draw folds either way, but a donk is gonna call no matter how much, so you are raising for value ... you don't want to get too many chips in just in case they suk out on you