Hello all, I would like to discuss here going into late stages of tournaments. I find myself constantly going deep into tournaments and only min cashing. Spending long hours to win and min cashing constantly can almost feel like losing. Even though making a small profit is always positive I just want to win one already or to place top 3 is my real goal for now. I would like to know players thoughts about late stages in tournaments. thank you dwrec
Just my 2 cents: maybe you're to worried to get ITM and let yourself short stacked playing too tight. It happens to me a lot when I play tournaments 'cause i'm too worried with my (short) bankroll 😀
If you're playing with 100+ buy-ins, try to change your game in the middle/late stages, taking advantage from position and short stacks.
If you're playing with 100+ buy-ins, try to change your game in the middle/late stages, taking advantage from position and short stacks.
It's much better to go broke trying to accumulate a big stack at the final table, than shoving just to keep your tournament alive. You will bust out more, but you'll give yourself a much better chance to hit a big pay day, than if you min cash a lot. I am willing to check out some hands of yours if you wish. Even if it was the Sunday Million or the wsop, you should be willing to take some risks because people will be wanting to just get in the Final Table or climb up the money.
to truly live, you must be willing to die
nearing the bubble most players will tighten up to try and squeak into the money, then once the bubble bursts and they're guaranteed a small payday they go nuts and it turns into an all in fest.
Do the opposite of this.
Raise a lot of pots near the bubble, but make sure YOU are in control of those pots applying pressure to medium stacks and anyone who seems desperate to survive the bubble. For example, I'd fold A9s to a mid position raiser...but then next hand if it folds to me on my cutoff I'll raise T7o. Then tighten waaaay up after the bubble (within reason).
If your steals work 70% of the time, it might suggest that you are being too cautious...only picking spots where you are positive they will fold... just like if you rarely get caught bluffing that means you probably aren't bluffing enough...same thing with stealing...if you rarely get caught stealing on the bubble, it means you probably aren't stealing enough.
nearing the bubble most players will tighten up to try and squeak into the money, then once the bubble bursts and they're guaranteed a small payday they go nuts and it turns into an all in fest.
Do the opposite of this.
Raise a lot of pots near the bubble, but make sure YOU are in control of those pots applying pressure to medium stacks and anyone who seems desperate to survive the bubble. For example, I'd fold A9s to a mid position raiser...but then next hand if it folds to me on my cutoff I'll raise T7o. Then tighten waaaay up after the bubble (within reason).
If your steals work 70% of the time, it might suggest that you are being too cautious...only picking spots where you are positive they will fold... just like if you rarely get caught bluffing that means you probably aren't bluffing enough...same thing with stealing...if you rarely get caught stealing on the bubble, it means you probably aren't stealing enough.
@missjaki I think that's great advice about tighten up after the bubble as I find myself still playing in the same gear as as if we were on the bubble or around it. However I seem on average to have of 10-25 bb around this stage so raising a small amount for me is almost never an option I'm usually reraise stealing from a lose player or shoving in late position to tight players sometimes not even super tight players.. It's never really a raise as I don't not want to get shoved all in from another player who would play back. Your thoughts?
I use online poker manager. You should be able to at least review the hand history have you tried using it... Or do you have a play back software to review hands
I will be happy to use it myself, but I can't download it right now due to problems on my computer. Once I resolve it which should be in about 18-20 hrs from now, then I will message you and I will go through it and message you back. Just a quick question, do you care about not making the money and being the bubble boy?
I've been the bubble girl a few times and it doesn't bother me as much anymore.
A note though: since I've opened up my bubble play and become willing to take risks that exploit tight play (the last 3+ years or so of my 6 years of playing) I've found that I actually bust out less often on the bubble, not more. Hard to believe, but it's true.
As for playing a 10-12 bb stack on th bubble, yes you're correct to be only shoving it or restealing with it. While restealing has higher reward, it also has much higher risk, so I prefer to be the opener and 3bet all in only for value or in the perfect situation. Id rather resteal with 89s than AJo because when I do get called I'm probably live. The best stack size for restealing is 15-22bs (IMO). And the best stack size for open shoving is 9-12bbs
A note though: since I've opened up my bubble play and become willing to take risks that exploit tight play (the last 3+ years or so of my 6 years of playing) I've found that I actually bust out less often on the bubble, not more. Hard to believe, but it's true.
As for playing a 10-12 bb stack on th bubble, yes you're correct to be only shoving it or restealing with it. While restealing has higher reward, it also has much higher risk, so I prefer to be the opener and 3bet all in only for value or in the perfect situation. Id rather resteal with 89s than AJo because when I do get called I'm probably live. The best stack size for restealing is 15-22bs (IMO). And the best stack size for open shoving is 9-12bbs
missjacki said:
This is solid advice and consistent with the advice to play tight vs. a loose table and loose(r) vs. a tight table.
OP, I am curious if maybe psychologically you are hitting a wall at the later stages? Sometimes when we are in a streak, bad or good, we focus on the momentum instead of backing away and focusing on correct play. Maybe, because you "keep losing later in MTT", you are subconsciously reinforcing that within yourself? Just a thought 😉
When the bubble breaks and you get into the money, is your position in the field more more often below the middle or above? I'd guess you're below more often than above. If this is the case over a decent sample size, your play is probably somewhat tighter than it should be whether you think so or not. And not necessarily right before the bubble, but possibly also in the period when it's yet close but close enough for you to start to think about it.
@scrover yes that would be great please do inform me once you are ready... And to answer your question no I do not care about bubbling at all.. I play multiply tournaments and I know the bubble time can be the most profitable time!! My goal is to win the tournament always...not survive... So by the time I'm around the Final table I want to have a good shot at me winning
@bearplay that's exactly what I thought! Like you said maybe psychologically I'm hitting a wall were mabe in my belief system I feel I dont deserve to win or I'm not good enough... Sometimes I get nervous around these stages and start over thinking... But yes if subconsciously I don't feel worthy I do I fix that... Confidence I know is the answer but what else
Obviously, the more chips you have when you get near the bubble (or any other relatively late point), the better your chance of going deep. So if you tend to have a below avg to avg stack, your chances of going deep are usually avg to below avg.dwrec said:
To go deep more often, you want to have an above avg stack more often when you arrive at this point. How to do that involves not just being more aggressive near the bubble but also getting better at accumulating chips in the middles stages, which also helps you to be more aggressive nearing the bubble.
Because payout tables are top-heavy, you'll win more over the long run if you go deep somewhat more often even if you cash somewhat less.
This is something that breaks my balls too, the late phase play. Until now i thought that it is with luck that i made a final table+recovering from being short stack. Then i adjusted some things in my play and i get ITM more than before (the feeling of making some progress is awesome 😀 ), most of the times avg. or a bit below avg. But from ITM i don't really know what i need to change to make more final tables.
I too think that it's something psychological, because even if i were to blame the (unplayable) cards or the coolers or the bad beats which leave me short stack, my play still ... well, it kinda sucks. Not because i'm tilting or anything, on the contrary, i'm calmer, but i think it's some sort of fear, my subconscious or whatever keeps messing around with me. 🙂
side note: i remember one day my cousin came to my house to play poker, his wifi wasn't working, and we both played 2 tournaments simultaneously. He went out for about an hour and i continued to play at 4 tables. Made the final table at 3 tournaments that session. Which now kinda makes me wonder, because i remember playing with a lot discipline. Could this be some sort of solution to my still unknown problem? 😀
I too think that it's something psychological, because even if i were to blame the (unplayable) cards or the coolers or the bad beats which leave me short stack, my play still ... well, it kinda sucks. Not because i'm tilting or anything, on the contrary, i'm calmer, but i think it's some sort of fear, my subconscious or whatever keeps messing around with me. 🙂
side note: i remember one day my cousin came to my house to play poker, his wifi wasn't working, and we both played 2 tournaments simultaneously. He went out for about an hour and i continued to play at 4 tables. Made the final table at 3 tournaments that session. Which now kinda makes me wonder, because i remember playing with a lot discipline. Could this be some sort of solution to my still unknown problem? 😀
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This is an interesting thread and I recognise your pain I was there myself a couple of years ago, always just squeezing into the money and then busting soon after. MissJackie is as usual right on. In order to live you have to be willing to die.
Its a great quote. I also of the opinion that in order to win you have to play to win right from the start. You have to be aggressive and take chances you are never going to win every flip so its important that you have plenty of chips and can take losing a few. Recently I've been getting many more big stacks going and tearing up the bubble phase which is easy when you are not at risk.
overall my in the money percent has dropped from 25 toabout 18 but my cashes are bigger. I still find the hardest phase is from halfway to the bubble. By then all the fish have gone and the better players are left. This is where good tourney play is essential so concentration and knowing the right tactics are essential. Target the medium stacks raise them to the point of pot commitment as many will fold and wait for better spots. 3 bet often from the bubble and blinds over hijack and cutoff min raises. Hope this helps.
Its a great quote. I also of the opinion that in order to win you have to play to win right from the start. You have to be aggressive and take chances you are never going to win every flip so its important that you have plenty of chips and can take losing a few. Recently I've been getting many more big stacks going and tearing up the bubble phase which is easy when you are not at risk.
overall my in the money percent has dropped from 25 toabout 18 but my cashes are bigger. I still find the hardest phase is from halfway to the bubble. By then all the fish have gone and the better players are left. This is where good tourney play is essential so concentration and knowing the right tactics are essential. Target the medium stacks raise them to the point of pot commitment as many will fold and wait for better spots. 3 bet often from the bubble and blinds over hijack and cutoff min raises. Hope this helps.
This is great advice. Bubble time is the time to build up a chip stack because people are really tight and focused on the money, especially the short stack people. As soon as the bubble is burst, people with small stacks tend to shove, so you have to be wary of that. Don't put chips into a pot if there are people after you with small stacks. You need to look at their stack and decide if you are willing to call if they go all-in. Otherwise get out of the pot until those folks have played themselves out and then start playing normally again.missjacki said:
dwrec said:
In the later stages of the tournament tight play is already the most preferred for those who have the biggest stacks - usually a top representatives of dozens or even twenty - depending on the number of prizes, and most importantly, participants.
To outsiders, the situation has not changed - to attack, though more aggressively than in the middle. Actual for intermediates will also attack, but more cautiously. Often you can sweep the table blinds only expense for fear opponents lose earned.
As stated above.
Lots of tournament players find themselves in this situation at one time or another.
First when close to the bubble or first in ITM dont get scared and tighten up to tight that you let the blinds kill you until your forced to make A medioker desision .
Pick up opportunities to take the blinds and chips off of the tight players with scared money.
As I have said a million times on the forum,it is crutial that you study your opponents playing style betting styles and range of playable hands,by analizing this you can then determine at your table who you can bully around abit and make moves on in order to gain chips from.
If you played scared money waiting on nut case hands to come your way late in tournaments you will always min cash more times than not.
You have to loosen up to more flops make more moves and pick them blinds and antes up every chance you get 🙂
Lots of tournament players find themselves in this situation at one time or another.
First when close to the bubble or first in ITM dont get scared and tighten up to tight that you let the blinds kill you until your forced to make A medioker desision .
Pick up opportunities to take the blinds and chips off of the tight players with scared money.
As I have said a million times on the forum,it is crutial that you study your opponents playing style betting styles and range of playable hands,by analizing this you can then determine at your table who you can bully around abit and make moves on in order to gain chips from.
If you played scared money waiting on nut case hands to come your way late in tournaments you will always min cash more times than not.
You have to loosen up to more flops make more moves and pick them blinds and antes up every chance you get 🙂