New optimal modern limp strategy

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Tylor Mendez

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I once heard Phil Hellmuth say, "It's okay, they chip and chip at me, then I kachunk!"

I started trying to think, "I wonder how and why he does this strategy." It seems that if you are opening wider in the beginning of the tournament when stacks are deep, it sets up an image that you are capable of being played at.

I think the "limping is not ever good" philosophy was actually false. Limping first to act looks strong, and if you are doing it with SUITED CONNECTORS, you are giving yourself more opportunities to build a stack, see more flops, and not get 3-bet out of a hand that plays well post flop. Think of it like chess. There are pawns and there are queens and kings.

Keep the pots small tho. And also, when blinds start to get more significant, TIGHTEN UP. This is the key part to this strategy and it will win you tournaments. The other players may not think to do this and just want to get involved too much later on in the tourney, thus making it easy to get a double up with a decent hand, maybe AJ+.

What are your thoughts? Are you going to try this fun strategy and see if you can make it your own? I play a lot of card games, and strategy is key. Just playing ABC poker all the time will get you nowhere.

I wish you the best of luck.

PS Don't be afraid to take stabs at flops!
 
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well I certainly do like what you have to say Tylor, it makes a lot of sense. I'm looking forward to what others think too
 
gon4iypes said:
well I certainly do like what you have to say Tylor, it makes a lot of sense. I'm looking forward to what others think too
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Thank you that means a lot to me. The game is always changing and its good to try to come up with meta-counter strategies.
 
Yeah i agree with you but it takes a lot of skill to decide on which hands to limp.I mean do you limp all the time in the beginning of tournament or you limp with the cards who have potential?
 
I must say , from my limited exp, anything predictable is bad , too much aggr or too much limp , bad .... there can be a bear walking through the woods and the hunter decides to trap it , however the hunter becomes the trapped and the bear the trappeeee and then maybe the hunter becomes the trappeeeze ,,, lol , jks , I'm gonna go with "levels" as my final answer , sometiimes the limp trapper will become the limp trapped as the trappe will know what the trapper is trying to do , or even just bad luck variance , enjoy (p.s I'm not drunk)
 
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Limping is bad because it doesnt win chips in mtts or money in cash fames over long period of time!

Basically, what you are saying is that you want to limp so that, if someone bets 4x or something, it becomes cheap for you to see the flop.
But thats just gonna happen once in a while and it wont make the pot small, because all the limpers are going to call and see that flop.

At the same time, lots of people will just limp behind you and you will have small pots with 5,6 players fighting for...

Limping is a bad idea overall, just dont do it, it is a leak in the game 🙂
 
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Limping is bad
Limping your suited connectors removes them from being In your 3x range making you predictable

Often first to act and out of position with bad cards.
Your CBETS lose more often as your non raising preflop range doesn't include premiums at all.
Unless you added premium hands to the limp hands
This is horrible in so many ways when implied odds are at hand
U lose soo much value limping at the beggining of a MTT with KK or AA

If anything ...premium hands limping to flop cbet works better later stages.
Limping with high blinds can get you played back at by the sb bb with a10+ short to mid stacked.
Often sb folds and bb is already ready to fold if he doesn't hit the top of the flop.
 
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I used to limp many mediocre hands to see a flop. But I bled too many chips so I tightened up and started cashing again.

Then I realized that there IS a time and a place for limping. Limping a drawing hand to a multi-way pot makes great sense. To win a multi-way pot you really will need a straight or flush. Top pair is probably not gonna do it - so you want to get to this flop that has great odds cheaply, with your suited connectors, position dependant of course.

As for limping with premium hands to set a trap, I really don't think this is a great move. If you end up with a multi-way pot because you limped, then you have no one to blame but yourself when you get outdrawn. If you are certain that you will be heads up after limping, then it is a fine trap, but how likely is this really? Standard equity calculations will tell you exactly how bad a play this is. Would you rather have 80% equity in a raised pot, or 60% equity in a small pot? Hmmm, let me think.

Ensuring you are not predictable is important, but the question was about limping.
 
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The bad thing aboout limping is there's many squeezers out there so it takes more chips to limp... But maybe you're right. Tell us the results!
 
ninjareal said:
I must say , from my limited exp, anything predictable is bad , too much aggr or too much limp , bad .... there can be a bear walking through the woods and the hunter decides to trap it , however the hunter becomes the trapped and the bear the trappeeee and then maybe the hunter becomes the trappeeeze ,,, lol , jks , I'm gonna go with "levels" as my final answer , sometiimes the limp trapper will become the limp trapped as the trappe will know what the trapper is trying to do , or even just bad luck variance , enjoy (p.s I'm not drunk)
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the saying is " it ain't no fun when the rabbit gets the gun " 🙂
or bear if you're drunk lol. JK 🙂
 
You guys I get what you are saying. Especially the part of having suited connectors in your 3x range.

I meant this strategy simply as a counter tech/meta strategy vs the play I've been seeing in the metagame recently. What I'm seeing is that people overplay their AK/AQ's and also their big pairs as well. So getting to a flop cheaply and flopping a monster draw with tons of equity, two pair, trips, or a straight can really change the tournament for you.
With people overplaying their hands so much, this was my idea of countering that. Also a way to see more flops and get better reads on who is playing what, ect.

Also, it's been getting good results in the smaller stakes, as I feel I have an edge post flop because I don't overplay my one pair hands and I know when I can confidently bet a pot against a range that most likely missed.

That, and sometimes you just get lucky!

Also, it does seem to work really well late tournament, as someone was saying.
 
I would not mind limping more the problem is too many 3 bets and shoves leaves dead money on the table because starting hand not strong enough to call therefore stack starts to decrease faster and then having to shove with mediocre hands.
 
Limping isn't a good strategy - hardly ever

Tylor Mendez said:
I think the "limping is not ever good" philosophy was actually false. Limping first to act looks strong,

Keep the pots small tho.
And also, when blinds start to get more significant, TIGHTEN UP. This is the key part to this strategy and it will win you tournaments.
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AKQ said:
Limping is bad
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Pretty much echo what AKQ said - but I'll add some less GTO comments as well.
Just because a player decides to limp doesn't mean that player will get to a flop any cheaper. From my perspective - I ignore a limp as if nobody had opened in front of me. I'm confident in my play enough to know when someone is trapping with a hand, and one counter to a EP/MP limp is to 3x the same type of hand you are talking about. So when I hit the flop EP/MP is in a whole lot of trouble because my range is just as disguised as EP limp is. Who'd 3-4x with baby suited gappers? Anyway - I think the strategy is bad and will loose in the short and long run.
The minnie-bet (Phil Ivey says) on the other hand is a lot better strategy.

Tylor Mendez said:
people overplay their AK/AQ's and also their big pairs as well
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This is because they watch too much poker on TV and youtube. A lot don't realize deep stack strategies don't work as well in non-deep stack games.

Yanko57 said:
The bad thing aboout limping is there's many squeezers out there so it takes more chips to limp... But maybe you're right. Tell us the results!
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Probably won't because the results will not be good.
 
Personally, I do not like to play limped and I do not like someone limping.
 
When I am playing in small local tournaments I see people limping all the time at the start when everyone has 80-100 BBs. When people limp into multi-way pots online I see lots of squeeze plays. When I am in late position pre-flop in a live tournament with a playable hand, I will often raise 2.5 BBs or more to add more to the pot. I'll add 1 BB for each person in the pot. When I play from early position with a hand in my betting range, I always bet 2.5 BBs. I almost never limp in to start a hand. You have to build up the pot to be able to win the most chips.
 
I too have changed my mind about limping. I do it now more often depending on circumstances. It gives me the opportunity from early position to see how information people want to give away pre-flop. I expect the hand to be raised. I also will limp w/ AA and KK at some tables if I sense that some people will shove over top of that weak opening.
 
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Small ball strategy. Works for Negreanu quite well in tournaments.
 
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I've been giving this topic way too much thought, and only recently realized why, I *think*, Hellmuth limps so much... and why it works for him.

Consider...
Limped pots are more likely to reach showdown. What good can come from reaching showdown with a cheaper/smaller pot often?

Answer: It gives a good player many opportunities to observe more behavior and tells relative to various starting hands. If you follow a long session, later on you'll notice Phil ups the aggression, raising in more standard spots testing the reads he's been gathering from all the family pots and cheap showdowns.

ie. The downside of optimal poker play can be that you see way fewer showdowns, and therefore need to gauge the field with much less information and certainty about what players had in various spots. By keeping it limped and cheap and seeing everyone's hands at the end, it can give a pro valuable information for later use.

In other words, yes, limping is a bad strategy in-and-of itself. However, if it's with a purpose in mind to capitalize on later in the session like how Hellmuth wields it, it can be a good tool, especially as he's getting a feel for a new group where he doesn't know much about them and their play, but they likely know a lot about his play.
 
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If you limp all the time people will get a read on you and drain you. They will raise you pre flop and then pressure the river. Tighten up when the table is loose and loosen up when the table is tight. Throw in a pre flop raise from time to time. Study position. Passive aggressive around the button is sound play.
 
I used to play years ago on UB. Tons of bots there in the day. They were always available for a game. I got curious and checked them out. My understanding some of those scripts changed how I played the game. It is when I switch back to my old Passive Aggressive play that I bomb out early.
 
NWPatriot said:
It was customary to make limp in mediocre ways to see a flop. But I sangrei muitas tokens, so I was fastened and started to win money novamente.

I felt that there is a time and a place to stain. Fazer limp with a hand draw for a multi-way pot makes a lot of sense. To win a multi-way pot you really need a straight or flush. The highest par is probably not going to be so - so you want to hit this flop that has great cheap chances, with your connectors of the same card, depending on the position, is clear.

As soon as I enter limp with my premium to ride an armadilha, I really don't want that that to be a bogada. You will end up with a multi-way pot because you enter limp, so you have no one to blame it on not being yourself when you are defeated. Are you sure that you will be in heads-up after entering limp, so is a boa armadilha, but what is the probability of that actually happening? Calculations of standard equity will tell you exactly what ruim is a jogada. Would you prefer to have 80% equity in an increased pot or 60% equity in a small pot? Um, deixe-me think.

Ensuring that you are not predictable is important, but what was fazer limp.
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I lost a lot of mine entering limp with my premium, trying to bring players for me, falhei several times or ran unnecessary risks to win a small pot. Currently, the most premium ones only jogam alto. Opponents who want to see the flop have to pay!
 
Most people who limp very often do this because they absolutely want to see the flop as cheaply as possible and are not sure if their hand is really worth one. They also usually play far too many hands but keep trying simply because they are curious. And they say that curiosity is dead to the cat. There may be situations where it can be good to limp, but in general it just isn't. Sometimes you should just fold if you don't think your hand is good enough to raise
 
Nowadays, I see more and more people raising with suited connectors cards (7,6; 8,7; 9,10 )and making a 3-bet all-in preflop, which may be a variation of the game but I don’t think it would be profitable in the long run.
Yes, HERO wins with it but in the long run I would be surprised if this game were profitable.
You can sometimes vary the game this way, but I think only to a moderate extent.
 
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