Fatman0912 said:
One does not rule out the other. I have won plenty of tournaments or secured top-3 places in situations, where my stack on the bubble was less than average. You can not win a tournament on the bubble, but you can lose it. It is very rare, that you have such a huge skill edge, that it is an advantage for you, that your table play many hands on the bubble, unless you are one of the biggest stacks already. For sure stalling might annoy some people, and to be honest I dont exactly enjoy the bubble either. Its always a relief, when it finally burst, but that does not mean, that I have to go on a suicide mission to make it burst faster 😉
There is a naivete to many of the anti-stalling comments, too many generalizations and too many givens.
The first being a big stack can simply dominate the table. Not true.
By the time the bubble is reached, tables have been broken down and reconstituted. You will seldom find one big stack and eight stragglers. So the idea one player can dominate the table is not necessarily true. The big stack can potentially get into a pot with another large stack and come up on the losing end. Not a desirable outcome.
In the meantime the blinds have become a consideration to everyone but the chip leader/s. So any player who is aware will understand some tables are on a complete go slow (all stack sizes) whilst their table is whizzing along in essence rapidly blinding down everyone sat there. We have all been in situations where, on the bubble, we thought we were comfortably in the money and had a stack size to maneuver to find a protracted bubble diminishes our stack noticeably.
Finally...a sense of camaraderie can develop at a table. Often, I am at a table with players who are familiar, I know they have run badly and they are struggling to bubble. Under such circumstances I would prefer to see them bubble than those at another table. So I will slow my play on their behalf and I know others will also. In fact, when I have been in such a position (low stack in the BB) if all have folded around to the big stack to my right, and he/she folds to pass me a few chips rather than steal my blind, I know it is intentional and will make a point of thanking and have gotten the classic ‘yw’ in reply.
It’s nonsense to pose the atmosphere is relentlessly annihilate, annihilate, annihilate at the poker table. After virtually every bubble congratulations are passed around and the smallest stacks applauded for hanging in there.
Many times the only way for this to happen is if everyone at the table collectively slow plays through the bubble.
The first being a big stack can simply dominate the table. Not true.
By the time the bubble is reached, tables have been broken down and reconstituted. You will seldom find one big stack and eight stragglers. So the idea one player can dominate the table is not necessarily true. The big stack can potentially get into a pot with another large stack and come up on the losing end. Not a desirable outcome.
In the meantime the blinds have become a consideration to everyone but the chip leader/s. So any player who is aware will understand some tables are on a complete go slow (all stack sizes) whilst their table is whizzing along in essence rapidly blinding down everyone sat there. We have all been in situations where, on the bubble, we thought we were comfortably in the money and had a stack size to maneuver to find a protracted bubble diminishes our stack noticeably.
Finally...a sense of camaraderie can develop at a table. Often, I am at a table with players who are familiar, I know they have run badly and they are struggling to bubble. Under such circumstances I would prefer to see them bubble than those at another table. So I will slow my play on their behalf and I know others will also. In fact, when I have been in such a position (low stack in the BB) if all have folded around to the big stack to my right, and he/she folds to pass me a few chips rather than steal my blind, I know it is intentional and will make a point of thanking and have gotten the classic ‘yw’ in reply.
It’s nonsense to pose the atmosphere is relentlessly annihilate, annihilate, annihilate at the poker table. After virtually every bubble congratulations are passed around and the smallest stacks applauded for hanging in there.
Many times the only way for this to happen is if everyone at the table collectively slow plays through the bubble.
NBDG8477 said:
I do agree with you where it probably doesn't make much sense if they have a huge stack and are stalling every hand. I didn't read all of the reply's but I get people constantly nagging at me to hurry up. Sometimes if you're playing 5/6 tables its hard to make snap decisions constantly so I find myself using more time in the tournaments that are higher value if that makes sense.
I feel your frustration though.
Depending on how my cards are falling I do this some times if they are not falling my way for 2 reasons. 1. I am not great at post flop play with bad cards. So I just want to let other tables take each other out and stall as long as i can until i start catching again.
2. Many of times when i was pushing i'd get a great hand only to lose on river and half my stack was gone. If I was catching early and start running cold I just want to protect my chips and make sure me and my big stack both make it to ft.😀
2. Many of times when i was pushing i'd get a great hand only to lose on river and half my stack was gone. If I was catching early and start running cold I just want to protect my chips and make sure me and my big stack both make it to ft.😀
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I had a recent situation at a live tournament w 13 players left and 12 spots paying out. I was the button w pocket 10's at a 6 player table which was more or less auto folding every hand. My stack situation was still better than a few players.
I wanted to play my hand, but did not want to see a flop. So I went all in. Surprisingly, to me, the small button thought long and hard, and then called w KK's, and I went out on the bubble.
I really beat myself up for longer than I should have, for not folding. Not so sure I wouldn't do again though, given the same situation.
I wanted to play my hand, but did not want to see a flop. So I went all in. Surprisingly, to me, the small button thought long and hard, and then called w KK's, and I went out on the bubble.
I really beat myself up for longer than I should have, for not folding. Not so sure I wouldn't do again though, given the same situation.
Argonaut said:
Happened to me too , had QQ though and bb had AK , I think my next situation I’d playa little different, mabe do a min raise to a 3 bb raise instead , especially if u have like 10-12 bb left and one from the bubble, cause I think the 3 bb raise is gonna have the same effect but gives u the option to run if you have too , like he’s either gonna push or call you and then you can reevaluate your situation. It’s a crucial point in a tournament to push if you don’t have too and trust me , even waking away with bubble $$ is better then choking just before , you grind a 6+ hr tournament to bust out sucks so I think I’d play it this way . I think I’d try to slow play it next time . But this is in this situation and not any other.
Stalling is such a drag when near the bubble. or during MTTs and 3 or 4 tables left of 5-8 players varying. When I played more in the past and that scenario, I was often watching the other 2 or 3 tables. You would get to where no hands were being dealt until the other tables finished. And I would see all the other tables but 1 done with their hand and here is this table with all of them taking the full allotment of time to play. Literally multiple minutes pass between a hand waiting for this table to complete it's hand.
I try to play majority of time quickly. To me I want my blinds to be as low as they can when my turn comes. It's one thing to tank a few hands here and there, it's just another when you see a player do it every hand. I don't need to wait for you to decide to fold that 27OS you were dealt. The way I look at. UTG-OK SB-OK BB-OK All-in decisions-OK If you have chips in the pot and there's a raise-OK
But 8-10 handed 2nd or 3rd to act, nothing invested in the pot and you just tanked the last 3 hands? Get it over with. Raise or fold. Or after UTG tanks what are you thinking about that you need that timebank?
Again not a problem if it's a casual few hands but every hand for 10 hands straight or more? You're costing me time to gain chips with more hands played. The online stats when I'm around avg chip and 5 hands later where I've not had a hand to play, and suddenly I'm 1,000s behind an avg chipstack.
I try to play majority of time quickly. To me I want my blinds to be as low as they can when my turn comes. It's one thing to tank a few hands here and there, it's just another when you see a player do it every hand. I don't need to wait for you to decide to fold that 27OS you were dealt. The way I look at. UTG-OK SB-OK BB-OK All-in decisions-OK If you have chips in the pot and there's a raise-OK
But 8-10 handed 2nd or 3rd to act, nothing invested in the pot and you just tanked the last 3 hands? Get it over with. Raise or fold. Or after UTG tanks what are you thinking about that you need that timebank?
Again not a problem if it's a casual few hands but every hand for 10 hands straight or more? You're costing me time to gain chips with more hands played. The online stats when I'm around avg chip and 5 hands later where I've not had a hand to play, and suddenly I'm 1,000s behind an avg chipstack.
Stall to get into money? Do it! Especially if your riding the bubble. Let the fast players get knocked out and then when your in the money it's a brand new game. So many times the great cards came after the stall and top finishes soon followed. Don't play half a strategy because someone tells you how to play. Utilize your time, that's why everyone gets the same amount.
NBDG8477 said:
You are correct in your thinking NBDG
When you are a short stack you benefit from stalling and seeing as few hands as possible, this decreases the chances of you 'getting coolered' and busting out
A big stack on the other hand definitely wants to play as quickly as possible to see as many hands as possible. Everytime a hand is dealt that big stack gets to apply ICM pressure on the shorter players and is printing money.
Not everyone is aware of that though, and sometimes people just wanna cash cause well... they want the monies... it is what it is :icon_rr:
Depends on the situation...
anything that works should be used if it's there. I remember the PSO league at Stars before Black Friday killed off US players. It was a points format for monthly dough. Decent scores at the top for putting the hours in. 3-4 games a day with points for every in the money finish and finishing in the best position possible. Needless to say, there wasn't much bingo all in being played for the minimal prize pool in the daily games except for the passing maniacs not interested in the monthly grind. Stalling for positions became a skill for many 🙂 Stalled my way to second and $700 one month so it was well worth the derision of having no stones. lol Use what works for any given situation and never apologize for it.
anything that works should be used if it's there. I remember the PSO league at Stars before Black Friday killed off US players. It was a points format for monthly dough. Decent scores at the top for putting the hours in. 3-4 games a day with points for every in the money finish and finishing in the best position possible. Needless to say, there wasn't much bingo all in being played for the minimal prize pool in the daily games except for the passing maniacs not interested in the monthly grind. Stalling for positions became a skill for many 🙂 Stalled my way to second and $700 one month so it was well worth the derision of having no stones. lol Use what works for any given situation and never apologize for it.
BrewCrewWI said:
You are missing the point, that stalling near the bubble is part of tournament strategy. People dont do it to annoy you, they do it to make money. Let me give you an example. Recently I was playing a 5,5$ R+A tournament with 10 min blind intervals. Apparently a lot of players in this tournament was just trying to cash, so even with this not very fast structure the tournament got very short stacked near the bubble. I was a slightly below average stack myself with around 10BB.
In this situation it would be incredibly naive of me to not stall. 18 places paid, and when we were down to 20, it had a table with 4 players, each of which had 3BB or less, and who all just tried to fold their way to the money. They would of course take the maximum time, and they also folded, when they were in BB and already had half their stack in the pot. On one occation someone was forced all in in BB, and the SB player, also very short, gave him a walk rather than try to bust him.
Now with 10BB I was not in a position, where I could just fold my way to a cash without losing a substantial amount of my chips. So the longer this dragged out, the more times I was forced to push all in, risking that someone behind me woke up with a hand, called and busted me. So of course I also stalled the action at my table as much as possible, and I only selected the best spots to push and try to maintain my stack.
It all worked out, and I ended up in the final heads-up with a slight chip advantage, at which point I made a deal with the other guy to take home around 320$. A min-cash by the way was 33$. Now to me even 33$ kind of matter, so I will not act fast in a spot like this, just because someone else might feel bored. If you want constant action, there are other formats of poker, that can give you that, like for instance Zoom cash games.
many do not like it, of course. This is a very positive game. Even if you watch a little of the players in another. they all take time. and it's not just that! so they go farthest in tournaments. that would be all for a plus. This applies only to online games. in living it is rather a minus