Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[Beanfacekilla]

pretty easy fold, but is he shipping AK/AQ? if not easy fold, if so easy fold

Yeah he might ship flop with AK or AQ.


That particular spot maybe best line is float flop, ship turn.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Tbf if we don't have a plan to make moves on turns then floating might not be that great in the first place since we only have two overs and a BDFD, but I guess we don't expect him to double barrel air a whole lot so it's probably fine.

 

[duggs]

Tbf if we don't have a plan to make moves on turns then floating might not be that great in the first place since we only have two overs and a BDFD, but I guess we don't expect him to double barrel air a whole lot so it's probably fine.

but this means that shoving turn is awful for us doesnt it?

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Lol I said turn was fold or raise. Clearly not the case given bet size on the turn.

Villain's line is super consistent with Ace high or <=TT. I think shoving is fine since we have a ton of equity against anything that calls.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Tbf if we don't have a plan to make moves on turns then floating might not be that great in the first place since we only have two overs and a BDFD, but I guess we don't expect him to double barrel air a whole lot so it's probably fine.

Quite honestly, people do alot of strange things live. I was very surprised he barreled turn, because I was certain he had ace high. He admitted when he was berating me he had no pair. This makes barreling turn stupid IMO, especially considering his smallish and transparent bet sizing.

My plan was float flop, steal turn. But when he barrels turn, I had to improvise. I was thinking about if I had a pair or even connected with the board and had a boat, he would think I would play it by flatting turn as well.

It caught me off guard, so I just made a mistake. And then, I check through on river. He would have called something.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

but this means that shoving turn is awful for us doesnt it?

Right, well with this sizing he's more weighted toward air or something he thinks has marginal showdown value prob. If he's barreling a more legitimate size I'm usually significantly more worried about overpairs.

But if he does double barrel more air on the turn it makes floating the flop worse, right?

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Right, well with this sizing he's more weighted toward air or something he thinks has marginal showdown value prob. If he's barreling a more legitimate size I'm usually significantly more worried about overpairs.

But if he does double barrel more air on the turn it makes floating the flop worse, right?

Well this particular turn "improves" his hand. It's highly unlikely the guy was planning to double barrel other random blanks.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I have changed my game somewhat in the last 6 months or so. I have incorporated light 3-bets, playing more spec hands like SC's, and generally applying much more pressure to my opponents.

The result of which is an extremely unpredictable image. I get nits to go on tilt. I get paid off more. I raise instead of calling now in many more spots. The results are better, but too short a time period to decide if they are quantifiable.


That being said, ponder this hand. It does illustrate some of the changes in my game. For example, opening pocket 4's UTG.


My table image is certainly that of an unpredictable, potentially dangerous opponent. My opponents are playing fit-or-fold for the most part. Very careful against me. Most of them are playing very selective preflop. I feel tension meter with this particular villain is high.


Pocket 4's UTG.


I decide to open for $11, as I feel it is better than limping.

Effective stacks about $300ish (I have opponent covered at about $460).


Folds to MP, he calls. All others fold. HU to flop.


Flop 5s-Kd-10d


I lead for a totally standard c-bet (HU, but maybe hitting opponent). $16

Opponent calls.

Turn 4h

Board 5s-Kd-10d-4h


I think to myself, villain will never see this coming. If he is drawing, I have to force him to make a mistake by calling too much with K-x and draws.

I bet $50, slightly under pot.


Villain tanks for a good 20 or 30 mississippis. He calls.


River Jc.
Board 5s-Kd-10d-4h-Jc.


I certainly feel I am best, but I am slightly worried about some combos of FDS (few) that could have hit gutter. I would hate to bet, and get raised here. That would be gross.


So, I decide to check, and hope villain steps into me so I can snap call, and pick off anything I beat.


I did not actively think about what kind of hands villain may have. I thought he was weak on the turn, and he probably doesn't have enough where he would call $100. But he certainly may bet with worse hands thinking I missed and quit firing.


Villain steps in and bets $75, and looks very confident while doing so.


I had already planned on snap calling any bet, so that is what I did.

I said "call" so fast, he shows anxiety.


"Do you have a straight?" He asks me.....


"No" I respond, and patiently wait for him to show.

Spoiler

He shows J-10o.

Do you think I played bad/good? Is the check call on river OK? Should I have CR the river?

 

[duggs]

ok well pre is neither here nor there, ill let the others chime in given they play live and full ring much more than me,

but if im opening to 11 preflop because its optimal in this game, im not opening 44 utg.

and if im opening 44 utg because its profitable, im not making it 11.

i dont mind limping it in a game like this to be honest. if you get raised to often occasionally limp/raise stronger hands.

flop, i know we have a stronger range, but this is the nut worst hand to cbet on this board (along with 22/33, assuming opening range of 22+ 89s+ ATs+ KQs AJo+) im x/f this flop all day long

turn, love the sizing we have turned him very dead.

river, this is my biggest beef, lots of his hands improved, but not enough to beat us, Q9dd and AQdd are the scariest candidates, but monster draws may rasie earlier in hand, the offsuit combos arent that heavy in this range. furthermore many single pair hands just improved that fall squarely in his range, some from 1 pair to 2 such as JT KJ, but many more combos picked up a pair, such as QJ AJ J9. so river is a choice between x/jam and bet/sigh folding. if you think we can get stacks from JT/KT/KJ often enough that x/jam outweighs the missed value from potential calls from QJ/AJ (which may fold to a river bet but i doubt it given the dynamic.

in short, not in love with pre, hate flop, love turn, think river you picked the worst option.

as a side note you must have an unbelievably crazy image if people are assuming you snap call with the nuts with money behind.

 

[xdeucesx]

Pre is fine
flop is a x/f
turn is good
river can be a bet or a x/jam imo. In-game, I probably just bet looking to get value from Kx, Jx, 2 pairs, but depending on how your game plays big or small, he could pay us off for a x/jam. Certain games I'd bet, certain games i'd x/j. Either way, both are fine imo.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

ok well pre is neither here nor there, ill let the others chime in given they play live and full ring much more than me,

but if im opening to 11 preflop because its optimal in this game, im not opening 44 utg.

and if im opening 44 utg because its profitable, im not making it 11.

i dont mind limping it in a game like this to be honest. if you get raised to often occasionally limp/raise stronger hands.

flop, i know we have a stronger range, but this is the nut worst hand to cbet on this board (along with 22/33, assuming opening range of 22+ 89s+ ATs+ KQs AJo+) im x/f this flop all day long

turn, love the sizing we have turned him very dead.

river, this is my biggest beef, lots of his hands improved, but not enough to beat us, Q9dd and AQdd are the scariest candidates, but monster draws may rasie earlier in hand, the offsuit combos arent that heavy in this range. furthermore many single pair hands just improved that fall squarely in his range, some from 1 pair to 2 such as JT KJ, but many more combos picked up a pair, such as QJ AJ J9. so river is a choice between x/jam and bet/sigh folding. if you think we can get stacks from JT/KT/KJ often enough that x/jam outweighs the missed value from potential calls from QJ/AJ (which may fold to a river bet but i doubt it given the dynamic.

in short, not in love with pre, hate flop, love turn, think river you picked the worst option.

as a side note you must have an unbelievably crazy image if people are assuming you snap call with the nuts with money behind.

I don't think he thought I would snap call and not raise with the nuts. I just think he thought he was way good and the only hand he gets beat by is straight.


I knew I messed up this hand.

Opening UTG was a choice based on dynamics. Most of the players were playing very carefully against me for whatever reason postflop. Add in about 4 nits behind me. Most of them seem to take UTG raises seriously.


I did think flop was definitely bad as well.

But I kind of thought HU we are supposed to barrel pretty much all boards. I may have to tweak my postflop c-betting.


Thank you for the much needed input and help duggs.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Pre is fine
flop is a x/f
turn is good
river can be a bet or a x/jam imo. In-game, I probably just bet looking to get value from Kx, Jx, 2 pairs, but depending on how your game plays big or small, he could pay us off for a x/jam. Certain games I'd bet, certain games i'd x/j. Either way, both are fine imo.

Yeah I picked least profitable line OTR. He would have called I think had I C/J.

 

[Figaroo2]

My thoughts were a couple of rivers where you should be betting for value with well disguised hands.
Re the flop cbet in the last hand be aware that with two broadway cards on the flop every other combo of 2 broadways has either a pair or at least a gutshot to the nut straight and are never going away to a single cbet. You have to be planning to fire multi barrel if you fire that flop. As we only have 2 outs to improve the flop cbet is spew most of the time.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

My thoughts were a couple of rivers where you should be betting for value with well disguised hands.
Re the flop cbet in the last hand be aware that with two broadway cards on the flop every other combo of 2 broadways has either a pair or at least a gutshot to the nut straight and are never going away to a single cbet. You have to be planning to fire multi barrel if you fire that flop. As we only have 2 outs to improve the flop cbet is spew most of the time.

This is a very good point. An excellent way to think about things. I make this mistake of c-betting without thinking about range sometimes.

Thanks for this.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Preflop: I prefer limping considerably more than raising. More so if your image causes even the nits to start tilt calling. As duggs mentioned, sizing is also unfavorable.

Flop: c/f. Hits villain's range and you have very little equity.

Turn: perfect.

River: easy value bet imo, especially given the image you described. People at this level just don't bet or raise rivers often enough and check behind way too often.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Preflop: I prefer limping considerably more than raising. More so if your image causes even the nits to start tilt calling. As duggs mentioned, sizing is also unfavorable.

Flop: c/f. Hits villain's range and you have very little equity.

Turn: perfect.

River: easy value bet imo, especially given the image you described. People at this level just don't bet or raise rivers often enough and check behind way too often.

Yeah I really goofed this one. I thought it would be worthy of discussion based on mistakes.


In the future I will be making a few tweaks.


However, I don't always play the same. Villain dependant. Still learning LAG style.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

I think one key improvement you could make based on the few hands you posted here is making larger and thinner river value bets. It's crucial if you are going to be playing with a more LAG image, and players at this level aren't going to be raising rivers and/or putting you in tough spots.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Frustrating weekend so far. Had a -530 session at my normal Friday home game, and it ended quite early so I had no chance to get unstuck. Then I ran pretty trashy at the MSPT yesterday afternoon. Final hand of second bullet was AA < KK AIPF. Then 1/2/5 PLO. I basically never won a hand worth more than half a buyin, which is pretty unusual for a lengthy session of PLO. Closed out the session with -1.2k. Again, because the game broke really early. Still planning to probably put in some hours tomorrow, but not sure what I'll play because I've only got like a grand in cash left, after already having hit up the ATM.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I think one key improvement you could make based on the few hands you posted here is making larger and thinner river value bets. It's crucial if you are going to be playing with a more LAG image, and players at this level aren't going to be raising rivers and/or putting you in tough spots.

Yeah for sure. My friends have told me the same. I have already put this tweak into action.

Thanks bro

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Frustrating weekend so far. Had a -530 session at my normal Friday home game, and it ended quite early so I had no chance to get unstuck. Then I ran pretty trashy at the MSPT yesterday afternoon. Final hand of second bullet was AA < KK AIPF. Then 1/2/5 PLO. I basically never won a hand worth more than half a buyin, which is pretty unusual for a lengthy session of PLO. Closed out the session with -1.2k. Again, because the game broke really early. Still planning to probably put in some hours tomorrow, but not sure what I'll play because I've only got like a grand in cash left, after already having hit up the ATM.

Keep at it. Sorry about the bad session. Things will turn around.




Intesting hand to ponder.....


$2/$5 NLHE

I have about $1000, but effective stacks are $255 (short stack), and other dude has probably 700~800.

I have Q-10o OTB.

MP dude opens for $20, 1 or 2 calls, then I call. Others call. Multi-way to flop.

Flop K-J-4 rainbow.

MP opener bets $65. I think about raising, but I don't think he'll fold. He is a POW (played with him alot)

I call $65.

Dude in SB ships for $235. MP dude flats. He is pretty deep, 400-500 back still. All others fold, and I get to close the action.

So at least $100 dead from preflop, +65+235+235, $630++ dead, I have to call (or raise) another $170.

I figured at the time a smidge under 4 to 1 on a call.

Edit: forgot to add, and it probably goes without saying - we can stack villain if we hit (obviously)



Hero?

 

[duggs]

Keep at it. Sorry about the bad session. Things will turn around.




Intesting hand to ponder.....


$2/$5 NLHE

I have about $1000, but effective stacks are $255 (short stack), and other dude has probably 700~800.

I have Q-10o OTB.

MP dude opens for $20, 1 or 2 calls, then I call. Others call. Multi-way to flop.

Flop K-J-4 rainbow.

MP opener bets $65. I think about raising, but I don't think he'll fold. He is a POW (played with him alot)

I call $65.

Dude in SB ships for $235. MP dude flats. He is pretty deep, 400-500 back still. All others fold, and I get to close the action.

So at least $100 dead from preflop, +65+235+235, $630++ dead, I have to call (or raise) another $170.

I figured at the time a smidge under 4 to 1 on a call.

Edit: forgot to add, and it probably goes without saying - we can stack villain if we hit (obviously)



Hero?

do we have any fold equity? i doubt he wants to put 500 more in with AK possibly drawing dead, but this is same guy you said never folds.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

do we have any fold equity? i doubt he wants to put 500 more in with AK possibly drawing dead, but this is same guy you said never folds.

He's sticky. Plus he looks very confident plopping bet in.

I felt like he never folds.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Easy fold pre. It's not close when stacks are this shallow. On the flop, does he not cbet any air? If not, then calling seems... okay. If we ever have FE we should raise. The problem with flatting here is that he very often has TP, and pretty frequently, with this sizing it will be AK or KQ. If an A comes, that will kill our action against KQ. We will stack AK or KJ but KQ or KT won't be excited.

Idk, I just feel like preflop mistake compounded here, forcing us to make tricky decisions where the EV is going to marginal in the best case, and negative in others.

 

[duggs]

Easy fold pre. It's not close when stacks are this shallow. On the flop, does he not cbet any air? If not, then calling seems... okay. If we ever have FE we should raise. The problem with flatting here is that he very often has TP, and pretty frequently, with this sizing it will be AK or KQ. If an A comes, that will kill our action against KQ. We will stack AK or KJ but KQ or KT won't be excited.

Idk, I just feel like preflop mistake compounded here, forcing us to make tricky decisions where the EV is going to marginal in the best case, and negative in others.

i wrote a lengthy post disliking pre also but it got lost

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Ok. I get what you guys are saying.

But only 1 villain has less than 100 BBs. Opener has 160 BBs +/-.


And considering 6 way to flop, even this guy isn't betting air. I put him on a strong hand, and I can stack him on the turn if I hit.



But yeah I agree with preflop being loose. I don't know what it is, I just have a certain love for Q-10.



Thanks as always for the input. You guys help me alot.



Please do not check spoiler if you have input on hand

Spoiler

I called on flop.

Turn is Ah.

Money goes in. Villain has AA and does not improve. I scoop a mega pot. I do understand results are irrelevant.