MicroCrushers Thread!!!!!

[Matt Vaughan]

No what I'm saying is that we can GII pre vs the standard QQ+/AK range which I would assume almost every reg has at this limit. But I think the portion of that range that we now beat (QQ) isn't going to GII after this flop and therefore by Cbetting we only aim to GII against hands that chop with us or beat us. I need reasons that are sufficient enough to justify betting this flop. Cbetting for the sake of it and then chalking it up to a cooler when I lose isn't good enough IMO.

The fact that 1 card FD's can develop OTT gives me enough reason to assume I'm more likely to make a street of value there from QQ and possibly JJ than I am OTF. Not to mention the fact that I can make plays like this and put him in such a tough spot.

Never once did I say that cbetting for the sake of cbetting is what you should be doing... So don't keep trying to suggest that's what I said. All I'm saying is that 4betting pre is very unlikely to be the most profitable line preflop, if we can't cbet a marginally dry, K-high board for value after getting called.

I also think you're making a pretty contradictory thought process pre. You think all he's gii with pre is QQ+/AK, AND all he's flatting the 4b with pre is the same range. I know his 3b stat has a small sample, it's likely 3/17 based on the number, but assuming he's 3bet/folding such a massive range seems odd to me. If that's true, well, fine, we can 4bet AK pre, but it's effectively a bluff/semibluff if we're "not happy" when we flop top pair.

In fact, if he's that 3bet/fold-happy, we should just 4bet a massive amount of air vs. him, and flat AK IP, along with a lot of our other stuff that plays well against a massively polarized 3bet range.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Never once did I say that cbetting for the sake of cbetting is what you should be doing... So don't keep trying to suggest that's what I said. All I'm saying is that 4betting pre is very unlikely to be the most profitable line preflop, if we can't cbet a marginally dry, K-high board for value after getting called.

I also think you're making a pretty contradictory thought process pre. You think all he's gii with pre is QQ+/AK, AND all he's flatting the 4b with pre is the same range. I know his 3b stat has a small sample, it's likely 3/17 based on the number, but assuming he's 3bet/folding such a massive range seems odd to me. If that's true, well, fine, we can 4bet AK pre, but it's effectively a bluff/semibluff if we're "not happy" when we flop top pair.

In fact, if he's that 3bet/fold-happy, we should just 4bet a massive amount of air vs. him, and flat AK IP, along with a lot of our other stuff that plays well against a massively polarized 3bet range.

Apologies

However you've still yet to supply me with a reason to bet the flop?

I'll attempt to break down my thought process more as how I perceive his range alters based upon new evidence brought to light by his actions. After his 3Bet, I'm assuming he 3Bet/GII with QQ/AK+ - I can't possibly assign him a 4Bet flatting range as I had no idea he would ever flat a 4Bet OOP in this spot (I've seen it happen but it's so rare amongst regs I can't give a default range on it).


So the issue with ranging him stems from the fact that prior to his flat, I assigned him a default range of QQ/AK+. Him not flatting 4Bets OOP was one of the factors contributing to that range, seeing as he did infact flat I now have to reassess his range. Which I find difficult to do because I don't have a great deal of experience playing against villains who take this line.

I hope that explains it a little bit better.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I'm not telling you to bet flop right now - that's not the crux of my argument here. The only reason I said to bet flop initially was because I assumed if you were 4betting pre, it was for value, and that you'd be value betting flop when you flopped about as well as you reasonably can.

Also, if you had no idea he was going to ever flat vs. your 4b, then I don't really like 4betting to begin with. Again, because when he's mega polarized to things that do very well against us and will gii, and then worse stuff that will fold, we should be 4betting polarized ourselves, and flatting a strongish range that we expect does quite well vs. his bluffs. If we didn't think he ever had a flatting range, we kind of have to assume his 3b range is extremely polarized.

And if you didn't know he had a 4b flatting range, and are stating now you don't know what's in it, then I don't get how you said before that he only can have the slowplayed nuts. It sounds like you're saying you know what he has narrowed to like 20 or fewer combos, but simultaneously you're saying you can't give him a default range.

I'm not trying to come across harsh here, cause I def understand being unsure of his range, etc. But imo it's one thing to be unsure of his range, and say so, and another to be unsure of his range in a spot and then say that his range is X and use that for the creation of the line.

P.S. Sorry for getting defensive. MUST DESTROY POKER EGO.

 

[ScottishMatt]

OK so OTF I'm unsure of his range but I feel like QQ/AK/AA isn't far off, it could be a bit wider than that. I think my would-be reason for betting the flop is to set up for a ship. I'd be betting the flop cause I want to GII.

KQ can call flop but probably folds to a turn jam. It can either bet or call a turn bet, so I net the same value vs KQ OTT as OTF.

QQ/JJ/TT (if he has those) probably just folds flop but can bet or call turn (if it has a diamond)

AK/AA probably just X/J flop (KK too if he has it), both bet the turn to get value from my QxQd.


So I was assuming he simply had quite a nutted range, but even if it was wider the board texture almost guarantees he plays his weaker hands (KQ/JJ/TT) the same as he intends to play QQ (the only hand I assumed I was good against).

I think that by assuming his range is tight as can be (and thus coming to the conclusion that I should check back flop) I don't lose out on anything and stand to profit more.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Ok, that actually makes a lot of sense postflop (I mostly meant pre for the range considerations). Agree that if we're betting flop we should be shoving almost any turn card. I'm not sure KQ can realistically fold turns getting whatever price that ends up being, but I guess I'm not sure of that.

On the QQ-TT, I'm not sure I agree on definitely folding flop, since most players who flat 4bets with those hands OOP probably won't be looking to x/f every board with an overcard, but again I'm not 100% on this. Agree for sure about AK/AA just gii. KK, I guess he could "slowplay" or jam it in over our cbet.

I like the thought process overall once we get to the flop, for sure, but I still contend that EV of flatting AK in our overall strategy vs. this type of range is going to be much higher than 4betting and gii if he wants to gii (or having to give up postflop if he flats).

I had another thing to say but forgot what it was, so I'll leave it there

Welcome back btw, where the hell've you been anyway??

 

[ScottishMatt]

I was on a top secret mission to save the universe






















That was just a joke. In case any of you, like, believed it.

Not been doing much TBH, I still lurk every now and then. Mostly I don't really feel like I have anything to input in regards to most threads.

Do we agree with this?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (BB): 135.3 BB
UTG: 110.5 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
MP: 96.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:heart: A:heart:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, CO calls 10.5 BB

Flop: (32 BB, 2 players) 8:club: Q:diamond: 2:heart:
Hero bets 18 BB, CO calls 18 BB

Turn: (68 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
Hero bets 103.3 BB and is all-in

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Turn jam is like... 70ish bb effective, right? So yeah seems fine. We have 15 outs most of the time when he calls, and he can easily fold 99-JJ. Unsure if he dumps weaker Qx like QJs and KQ, but given he's an unknown I'm not sure if he folds KQ. Still seems fine to me, and preferable to anything else since we're OOP. I hate x/anything here.

 

[duggs]

first hand I'm betting all day on the flop, presumably we 4bet pre for value therefore we can bet the flop for value, if we can't 4bet it for value then it doesn't belong in our bluffing range pre flop, bet the flop a size he can shove over and snap a jam. I really really hate a check back as it removes all of the bluffs from our range, furthermore it removes flush draws from our range so we are capped on all diamond turns, if you are arguing we don't have a bluff range because we can exploitatively bet pre flop for value, then that applies on the turn swell,
as played what hands are you trying to fold out on river that we beat? sets raise turn, AA doesn't play like this.

hand 2 is fine

 

[loafes]

River rat



*Hold'em No Limit, $0.01 / $0.02 (6-handed) - Played on PokerStars. Converted by GrinderSchool's Hand History Converter

Seat 1: Btn ($2 in chips)
Seat 2: SB ($4.74 in chips)
Seat 3: HERO (BB) ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($1.71 in chips)
Seat 5: MP ($3.35 in chips)
Seat 6: CO ($2.51 in chips)

SB posts small blind $0.01
HERO posts big blind $0.02

PreFlop: Dealt to HERO [T

J

]
2 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 2 folds, HERO calls $0.04

*** FLOP *** 4

Q

K

(Pot=$0.13)
HERO checks, CO bets $0.09, HERO raises to $0.24, CO calls $0.15

*** TURN *** 7

(Pot=$0.61)
HERO bets $0.28, CO calls $0.28

*** River *** 9

(Pot=$1.17)
HERO bets $1.42(AI), CO calls $1.42

*** Showdown *** (Pot=$4.01)
HERO shows [T

J

]
CO shows [Q

Q

]

HERO wins $3.87


Probably continuing on the turn was no good since at 2nl (was zoom) any hand they're calling the flop C/R isn't folding a blank turn, even on the flop the fact they bet 9c should probably raise alarm bells since generally just hitting buttons results in an 8c bet so they probably have value and are protecting their hand. Still worked out in the end.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I could be wrong but it feels like you're trying to read too much into his sizing. For one thing, people tend to think about sizing less with value hands (in my experience) because they are more comfortable, whereas when bluffing they are more cognizant of stuff. Could be diff though. Also, 9c into 13c is what a 2/3 pot button would round to, so? Unless it rounds down, in which case 3/4 pot would round down to 9c.

But in terms of more legit analysis, I don't really like raising the flop since the only value hand we rep is 77 and there's no FD so we can't rep other flushes that come in. Plus, it's a board where he'll connect a decent amount and won't want to fold. Needless to say, I agree you should shut down on turn.

 

[loafes]

*Hold'em No Limit, $0.01 / $0.02 (6-handed) - Played on PokerStars. Converted by GrinderSchool's Hand History Converter

Seat 1: Btn ($2.35 in chips)
Seat 2: SB ($3.93 in chips)
Seat 3: BB ($4.37 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($2.63 in chips)
Seat 5: HERO (MP) ($9.56 in chips)
Seat 6: CO ($1.91 in chips)

SB posts small blind $0.01
BB posts big blind $0.02

PreFlop: Dealt to HERO [A

A

]
UTG folds, HERO raises to $0.06, 3 folds, BB calls $0.04

*** FLOP *** 5

4

5

(Pot=$0.13)
BB bets $0.06, HERO calls $0.06

*** TURN *** 7

(Pot=$0.25)
BB bets $0.10, HERO calls $0.10

*** River *** 4

(Pot=$0.45)
BB bets $0.18, HERO calls $0.18

*** Showdown *** (Pot=$0.81)
BB shows [K

K

]
HERO shows [A

A

]

HERO wins $0.78


Great, AA vs KK deep stacked and villain decides to take some weird line and now of all times I play my hand passively post flop rather than raising for value like I normally would. Great job getting value loafes

 

[Logan2]

Great job getting value loafes

This

Agree with Scourrge on upper hand, 9c is my standard on 2 which is 70% pot, i have 68% taged but it rounded.

 

[Mase31683]

The main reason is because it allows me to play significantly higher stakes than NL off of the same roll. I heard that 150BBs is sufficient bankroll for the micro limit games but 150bbs isn't even 1 buy in for no limit. Even using 300BB BRM I could play $0.50/$1 limit or 10NL where 1BB/100 would be equal to 10bbs/100

5PTBB/100 isn't really hard to achieve at 10nl though. You can play nice straightforward ABC and crush pretty hard.

I started as a limit player, $2/$4 and $4/$8 mostly. Worked up to $20/$40 (this is all live). I've played as high as $80/$160 online back when the games were a bit more fishy. The thing I always found though....the money just came easier at NL.

I'd really suggest not bothering with limit, not online anyway. From what I've seen it's mostly just over the top aggro-fest and the money comes so much slower. But hey, if it's working it's working, just figured I'd give you my perspective.

 

[loafes]

To be honest I dropped it pretty quick. I'm back at NL right now. Unfortunately since I keep making withdrawals and haven't fully recovered from losing most of my roll I'm only at a bit more than $60 so stuck at 2nl for now. The games at 2-10nl are lol soft though so I shouldn't be there too long hopefully.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

To be honest I dropped it pretty quick. I'm back at NL right now. Unfortunately since I keep making withdrawals and haven't fully recovered from losing most of my roll I'm only at a bit more than $60 so stuck at 2nl for now. The games at 2-10nl are lol soft though so I shouldn't be there too long hopefully.

If you don't mind my asking, why do you keep making withdrawals? I don't want to make any assumptions about what amount of money is significant to you, and if you need to withdraw, you need to withdraw. But I will say this: frequent withdrawals is probably the second best way to stunt your growth as a poker player (number one would be jumping up stakes/lack of BRM). You may feel like "oh, I'm just withdrawing $50 here, $60 there." But that adds up, and in a compounding way. Assuming you're a winning player, withdrawing significant parts of your roll sucks, because it means you can't move up, which in turn makes it exponentially longer before you get two levels up, and three levels up, and so on.

 

[loafes]

If you don't mind my asking, why do you keep making withdrawals? I don't want to make any assumptions about what amount of money is significant to you, and if you need to withdraw, you need to withdraw. But I will say this: frequent withdrawals is probably the second best way to stunt your growth as a poker player (number one would be jumping up stakes/lack of BRM). You may feel like "oh, I'm just withdrawing $50 here, $60 there." But that adds up, and in a compounding way. Assuming you're a winning player, withdrawing significant parts of your roll sucks, because it means you can't move up, which in turn makes it exponentially longer before you get two levels up, and three levels up, and so on.

No problem asking.

The thing is that I'm 19 and the only source of income I have is my casual job at McDonalds. I know everyone thinks oh McDonald's how horrible, but it's better here in Australia than it is in most countries. In fact the pay is alright for what it is as well, I make $18.48 an hour and thats at 19 its a little more at 20 and 21+. Of course I get shit all hours at the moment though and when I get moved to part time hopefully soon then I'll be making $15.15 an hour but get holiday pay and a guaranteed amount of hours each week.

The problem is that although I live in Australia I'm originally from New Zealand which means I'm not entitled to any government assistance either which sucks big time. Well all my friends would get job seekers/youth allowance or whatever when finishing high school I had no money and no job and no benefits. Because of this I still live with my parents but I'm still expected to pay board which is okay except that until I start getting more hours at work I usually end up needing the extra poker cash.

Right now my life isn't exactly ideal however things should hopefully change soon and I can start putting money aside to move out. I figure I'll need to be making a bit over AUD$200 a week to live on but will need money put aside to move out initially.

What's more I no longer have computer/laptop access so have had to play mainly from my phone. This is why I mainly play zoom, because it means I can get reasonable number of hands per hour and means the lack of HUD is a little less of an obstical. I have to say that playing from mobile doesn't exactly put me into the proper grinder mind set, but It's still profitable for me.


Good news is that I have a plan. I shouldn't need to be making any more withdrawals (hopefully) and I intend to pay for a laptop once I make ~$300 then I plan to climb the stakes. I should also start making more at work soon and can start preparing to move out. Once I do I want to move back to Melbourne (interstate) get a job in a bar or something or continue working at maccas whatever. And go to UNI to sort out my life.

Um yeah sorry about the long post, I know you didn't really ask/ want to hear my life story. But I've been wanting to get that off my chest

 

[duggs]

Aaaaah another Kiwi, where you from originally? whats your plans long term?

 

[loafes]

Aaaaah another Kiwi, where you from originally? whats your plans long term?

Originally from Auckland, moved to Melbourne with my mum and sister when I was 11

To be honest I'm not sure what my long term plan is. Mainly I've got an idea about the next few years. Basically I want to get together the money for a laptop so I can actually make real gains in poker and once I've got that I want to get together the money to move ASAP. I'll move to Melbourne and hopefully get some work in the hospitality industry. I know there are free courses (ones I actually qualify for ) that give hospitality skills/training plus like your RSA/RSG certs. So it shouldn't be too difficult to get work, if not I should at least be able to transfer from my current job at Maccas. And basically I want to spend a year or so just saving up and trying to enjoy being 19/20. In Melbourne I'll be able yo socialise with my friends. Play chess regularly again since before moving interstate early last year I was a big chess player. And of course during this time I want to be getting good at poker. The crown casino is in Melbourne so I should be able to play some live as well.

Hopefully I've got enough saved up by the time I'm 21 that I can look at uni options as a mature age entry. Unfortunately KIWIs don't get any hex/student loan options so I'll have to pay everything myself. As to what I plan to study, well... I'm not really certain. I've always been great at maths and enjoyed it a lot so should probably do something in that area, but then I kind of like psychology and business as well.

Okay so cliffs: I have no idea what I want to do long term.

 

[duggs]

move back to NZ for uni then?

 

[loafes]

I guess moving back to NZ is something I should probably give some serious thought to. I guess I've just had my heart set on Melbourne since I have so many friends there plus there is a decent chess scene and I just generally really like the city and it's cafe culture.

 

[duggs]

yea but getting screwed on the loan system sucks, you should still at least be able to get a student loan from NZ govt, even if you don't get living cost (although you should be eligible depending on parents wage) check it out

 

[loafes]

Holy shit you got me thinking duggs. Looking around I'm finding a lot of interesting info. It seems with recent reforms, NZ has been cracking down on Kiwis with student loans who live oversees. I don't even think I can get it and there would be extra charges if I did.

What's really interesting is that I came across some info regarding the Australian system which previously I wasn't entitled to. Apparently there have been proposed changes that are taking place January 1st next year. Kiwis who arrived here on a special category visa (anyone who's moved here since 2001 basically) are now being given the hecs option if when they arrived they were dependant minors and provided the have been living in Australia for at least 8 years.
I arrived on a special category visa and as a dependant minor but won't have been living here for 8 years until later on next year, I think like August.

 

[duggs]

that crack down is post study, and refers to not paying it back, I'm sure you are eligible, NZ cit and all

I'm out of country atm, but still eligible for everything

 

[Matt Vaughan]

loafes: No problem sharing "life story" (that wasn't even long, have you SEEN my posts??). I honestly really appreciate you taking the time (and leap of faith) to share your situation. I kind of figured there was some kind of life-stuff going on, and I'm sorry to hear your situation is not ideal, though it sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on what you want to be doing in the mid-term (between short-term and long-term??). Obv RL comes before poker, so having the means is a bit of a precursor, and I didn't want to come across as insensitive, so I hope I didn't.

Good for you for wanting to get to uni, even if you don't know what you want to study. I just finished up in May, and it was a great experience for a wide variety of reasons. I also had a lot of interests, majoring in physics, but minoring in music and psychology. The thing about school is that, while it's partially training for future employment, it really is also about growing as a person, expanding how you think, and learning what you actually want to learn.

Wish you the best, and I hope poker keeps going for you and you can get that laptop soon and keep crushing them micros.

 

[Mase31683]

You make more working at McDonalds than most of my friends who have college degrees...that blows my mind.

Then on top of it you're allowed to play poker online at all the good sites still. I guess I'm fortunate to have casino access.

Anyway, I had to cash out my pokerstars account (US player), and I thought I'd killed all my online funds. But I got an email saying I had $100 on Carbon, so I'm gonna use some spare time to try and grow it. So far I've played 2300 hands of $4nl at 28bb/100. Probably jump over to $10nl when I hit $150, then if I drop 2 BI's I'll reassess.

Just not sure how much time I'll actually have to play, we'll see