Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Sneaky Feet]

Quick question guys. What's the difference between PFR and 3bet preflop?

 

[fletchdad]

Quick question guys. What's the difference between PFR and 3bet preflop?

PFR is when you are the first to bet. 3bet is when you raise the PFR.

 

[Figaroo2]

Rhom.... QQ flop shove
When UTG raises and MP 3bets and the players are tight and decent then QQ isn't in good shape very often especially in full ring. you hope to be up against AK. It's a bad place to shove as it's difficult to see what worse calls that amount. If he did have JJ you would have forced him out when calling a the bet might have got more value later in the hand.
If we had just called and the ace comes and he bets it's a fairly easy fold. But probably the turn gets checked through and may be the river as well and we lose the min.

AK you paid a heavy price for checking the flop (when you didn't need to) I'm just betting the flop there.

 

[TimovieMan]

Rhom: an UTG open and an MP 3-bet usually means MP has JJ+/AK (i.e. a very strong range). I like the preflop flat (instead of a 4-bet), but why are you raising the flop?
You'll shut down JJ and make him fold AK, and get value-towned by QQ+. I just call. When the A comes on the turn, continuing depends on the size of his bet. If he checks, then I bet out, planning to fold to a raise or to check behind on the river.

AK: what are probably the only hands that you 3-bet preflop but you don't c-bet with here? AK/AQ.
He calls the turn because he still beats your bluffs. Once he makes his boat, he decides that you're not calling a bet with your bluff hands, but you're never folding AK here.
He got max value, imo. Something he wouldn't have had, had you just bet the flop and turn (as he would have had to fold on the turn, imo).

 

[Figaroo2]

ok weekend but the vpip/pfr gap remains

This is all full ring, when there are so many unbluffable fish calling stations around i tend to call more 3bet less.
Does having the 6% gap really matter so much? I know it will further up but it doesn't seem to at these stakes.

 

[Figaroo2]

The levels of aggression are rising at the micros generally imo. I used to fold in a spot like this, check out these 3 hands.....theme Jacks

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $4.57 (45.7 bb)
Hero (BB): $17.13 (171.3 bb)
UTG+2: $11.37 (113.7 bb)
MP1: $10.41 (104.1 bb)
MP2: $8.85 (88.5 bb) - VPIP: 55, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 11
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10.21 (102.1 bb)
BTN: $10.17 (101.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

A

2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, MP2 calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) 6

J

2

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP2 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.25) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.61, MP2 raises to $7.75 and is all-in, Hero calls $6.14

River: ($17.75) T

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $17.75 pot ($0.80 rake)
Final Board: 6

J

2

Q

T

Hero showed A

A

and won $16.95 ($8.10 net)
MP2 mucked J

5

and lost (-$8.85 net)

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
BB: $11 (110 bb)
UTG+1: $5.29 (52.9 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $17.94 (179.4 bb)
MP2: $15.39 (153.9 bb) - VPIP: 38, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 5.0, Hands: 29
MP3: $11.62 (116.2 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $5.74 (57.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J

J

UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.30, MP3 calls $0.30, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.05) 8

J

6

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, MP3 raises to $11.32, Hero calls $8.95 and is all-in, MP2 folds

Turn: ($21.20) 4

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($21.20) 5

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $21.20 pot ($0.95 rake)
Final Board: 8

J

6

4

5

Hero showed J

J

and won $20.25 ($10.25 net)
MP2 mucked and lost (-$1.05 net)
MP3 mucked J

A

and lost (-$10 net)

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $10.39 (103.9 bb)
BB: $11.87 (118.7 bb) - VPIP: 77, PFR: 48, 3B: 0, AF: 2.4, Hands: 31
UTG+1: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $15.81 (158.1 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
MP3: $10.94 (109.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $3.85 (38.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

Q

2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.05, 2 folds, BB calls $0.95, MP1 folds

Flop: ($2.45) 5

J

4

(2 players)
BB bets $2.34, Hero calls $2.34

Turn: ($7.13) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6.61 and is all-in, BB calls $6.61

River: ($20.35) K

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $20.35 pot ($0.92 rake)
Final Board: 5

J

4

9

K

BB showed 8

J

and lost (-$10 net)
Hero showed Q

Q

and won $19.43 ($9.43 net)

 

[Sneaky Feet]

PFR is when you are the first to bet. 3bet is when you raise the PFR.

Thanks man.... So then what's the difference between VPIP and PFR. Aren't they the same? Or is your VPIP a combination of your PFR and 3bet?

 

[fletchdad]

Thanks man.... So then what's the difference between VPIP and PFR. Aren't they the same? Or is your VPIP a combination of your PFR and 3bet?

PFR (pre flop raise) is when you raise a hand, either as an open raise or raise over limpers. A 3bet - as we discussed before -is when you re-raise a raise (think like this. The blind is a bet, you raise, that is the second bet, someone re-raises, it is the third - or 3 - bet.).

VPIP (voluntarily put money in pot) is any way at all you voluntarily stay in the hand, so any raise but any call as well.

So PFR is when you raise, VPIP is when you limp or call a raise. VPIP will always be at least your PFR, almost always higher though. It would only be the same if you never call and only raise, which would be pretty insane. I have had tables where I run like 10/10, 7/7 or w/e for a while but only over a small amount of hands.

So someone who has a vpip of 40 and a PFR of 3 is limping or calling a lot of raises but hardly ever raising. As one example.

 

[rhombus]

Thanks man.... So then what's the difference between VPIP and PFR. Aren't they the same? Or is your VPIP a combination of your PFR and 3bet?

Most of definitions you need are here

Have a look here http://www.myholdempokertips.com/hud-stats-guide

• VPIP
• Preflop Raise – PFR
• 3-Bet (re-raise)
• Aggression
• Call Open – CCPF
• Check-Raise
• Continuation Bet
• Defending Blinds
• Stealing Blinds
• WTSD and W$SD

 

[rhombus]

This is all full ring, when there are so many unbluffable fish calling stations around i tend to call more 3bet less.
Does having the 6% gap really matter so much? I know it will further up but it doesn't seem to at these stakes.

With those bb/100 stats id keep doing what you are doing

The more I think about it the more I think the gap doesn't matter so much at the micros unless it is really big i.e. 30/3 22/5 etc.

My thinking being you make most of your money postflop against the fish by value betting, so by being too aggressive preflop you reduce the number of times you get called by them unless they are really fishy then they call whatever you raise.

In general only reason to raise is to isolate the fish and get rid of the better players. Obviously you will also raise to build the pot especially in position against the fish but I don't think you need to raise it most times you enter a pot i.e. having a slightly bigger gap than optimal stats

 

[Figaroo2]

brag chart

Rhom
I looked again at the KK AQ KT hands you posted above and if you are playing zoom against virtual unknowns then I don't think there is any way of playing them much differently.
This is one of the problems I have with zoom, you are playing against the player pool and their tendencies without much knowledge of the individual players.
VSpiros and I had few experimental zoom sessions with me three betting a ton mainly in position and full pot double barreling everything. You can just bully people off hands because they don't have any reads
I MUCH prefer normal poker where I can use my hud to make reads rather than playing in the dark.
This chart is my last 4000 hands...not a zoom hand in sight and packed full of good reads. Frankly there is no way I could do this in zoom.

 

[Figaroo2]

Zoom aggro session 5nl
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...garoo2-poker-journey-257038/post-2912333.html

I mean how do you know they aren't just doing this at zoom, you are well hidden in a large playing pool.

 

[rhombus]

Rhom
I looked again at the KK AQ KT hands you posted above and if you are playing zoom against virtual unknowns then I don't think there is any way of playing them much differently.
This is one of the problems I have with zoom, you are playing against the player pool and their tendencies without much knowledge of the individual players.
VSpiros and I had few experimental zoom sessions with me three betting a ton mainly in position and full pot double barreling everything. You can just bully people off hands because they don't have any reads
I MUCH prefer normal poker where I can use my hud to make reads rather than playing in the dark.
This chart is my last 4000 hands...not a zoom hand in sight and packed full of good reads. Frankly there is no way I could do this in zoom.

Nice graph I'm jealous. PS you need to click on the red flag (next to where it says feedback), maybe something wrong with your HUD, maybe you have hands other than Holdem in there

 

[John A]

stacked 3 times tonight. Coolers or avoidable??? and how best to play them if I screwed up.

Think the KT was probably bad especially as deep but the other 2 not sure what else I could've done

Hand 1

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BB: $11.42 (114.2 bb)67/33 AG67% 3 hands
UTG: $19.25 (192.5 bb)
MP: $20.70 (207 bb)
Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.21 (102.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 8

Q

Q

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.45, BTN folds, BB raises to $2.26, Hero calls $1.81

Turn: ($5.47) Q

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.47) 7

(2 players)
BB bets $8.86, Hero calls $7.44 and is all-in

Results: $20.35 pot ($0.92 rake)
Final Board: 8

Q

Q

Q

7

BB showed Q

J

and won $19.43 ($9.43 net)
Hero showed K

K

and lost (-$10 net)

Like everything, and river overbet looks like what it is most of the time. I think if your opponent has TT and under, they just value bet or sometimes c/c. JJ they might get over zealous at these stakes, but usually VB or c/c. I don't hate the river call though of course. But I think you're seeing Qx over 90% of the time. I didn't look at results and as soon as I saw the river shove I thought almost always Qx. But the guy might be a little overly aggro, and he could value shove worse if he's really bad. So like I said, I don't hate it.

Hand 2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $21.52 (215.2 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)16/13 AG 50% 93 hands
Hero (UTG): $10.59 (105.9 bb)
MP: $20.29 (202.9 bb)
CO: $3 (30 bb)
BTN: $19.20 (192 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

Q

Hero raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) Q

6

7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, MP folds, BB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) A

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.49, BB raises to $5.40, Hero raises to $9.59 and is all-in, BB calls $3.60 and is all-in

River: ($20.35) 5

(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $20.35 pot ($0.92 rake)
Final Board: Q

6

7

A

5

BB showed 6

6

and won $19.43 ($9.43 net)
Hero showed A

Q

and won $0.00 (-$10 net)

It's fine. Just make sure you suckout next time.

Hand 3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $18.10 (181 bb)22/9 AG38% 32 Hands
Hero (BB): $13.96 (139.6 bb)
UTG: $12.70 (127 bb)
MP: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
CO: $45.30 (453 bb)
BTN: $4.85 (48.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

T

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.90) K

T

7

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.43, SB raises to $1.40, Hero calls $1.40, BTN folds

Turn: ($4.13) 6

(2 players)
SB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8.45, SB raises to $16.40 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.81

River: ($28.65) 8

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $28.65 pot ($1.29 rake)
Final Board: K

T

7

6

8

SB showed 7

7

and won $27.36 ($13.40 net)
Hero showed K

T

and lost (-$13.96 net)

I probably lead on this board since you have top 2 on a board that will connect with a lot of hands. If someone doesn't bet the flop, you're unlikely to get much money any ways. 120bbs or less effective, I'd 3-bet the flop. I'm not sure why you only call the flop though and then raise the turn. I'm a little confused on that one. I'd probably just call down at this point since the guy doesn't seem to be overly aggro and you're a little too deep to stack off against someone like this imho. Not horrible again by any means, but it's just over that threshold of over valuing a hand vs the opponent.

 

[Figaroo2]

make sure you suck out AQ like this

I had just the hand from earlier

 

[Figaroo2]

Or maybe even like this

Same table just a little later.
lucky....

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Most of definitions you need are here

Have a look here http://www.myholdempokertips.com/hud-stats-guide

• VPIP
• Preflop Raise – PFR
• 3-Bet (re-raise)
• Aggression
• Call Open – CCPF
• Check-Raise
• Continuation Bet
• Defending Blinds
• Stealing Blinds
• WTSD and W$SD

Awesome thanks Rhom : )

 

[John A]

Same table just a little later.
lucky....

See! That's how I taught you to do it! :icon_sant

 

[John A]

This is all full ring, when there are so many unbluffable fish calling stations around i tend to call more 3bet less.
Does having the 6% gap really matter so much? I know it will further up but it doesn't seem to at these stakes.

Nice run btw.... as far as gap, I think you understand this game well enough to make the adjustments needed for your tables. If they are that fishy, then flat calling a little more is fine. 6% is still a little much for your VPIP. Like if you were 28 and pre was 22... that's one thing. So the ratio is still a little larger than I'd personally recommend, even at really fish tables, but you are the best judge of that.

 

[or3o1990]

What time is the sweat today and who's playing?

 

[rhombus]

General Default lines for 3Betting OOP postflop ?????

As the 3Better OOP Do you go for value or showdown as so difficult to get value when OOP. I got check raised in one hand then this hand I went for showdown

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.02 (100.4 bb) 20/8 AG30%
Hero (BB): $5 (100 bb)
UTG: $8.81 (176.2 bb)
MP: $3.79 (75.8 bb)
CO: $2.33 (46.6 bb)
BTN: $5.53 (110.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

J

4 folds, SB raises to $0.14, Hero raises to $0.42, SB calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.84) Q

9

5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.84) 6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

River: ($1.54) T

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

Results: $3.54 pot ($0.15 rake)
Final Board: Q

9

5

6

T

SB showed 8

7

and won $3.39 ($1.62 net)
Hero mucked J

J

and lost (-$1.77 net)

 

[rhombus]

similar to above, but this time i cbet although prob cbet higher.

Is it just a case of WA/WB when OOP

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.38 (187.6 bb)
BB: $6.33 (126.6 bb)
UTG: $15.72 (314.4 bb)
MP: $23.86 (477.2 bb)
CO: $5.65 (113 bb)32/20 32% ag 42 hands
BTN: $5.25 (105 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

J

UTG raises to $0.12, MP folds, CO calls $0.12, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, CO calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.97) 5

8

A

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.07) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1, Hero folds

Results: $2.07 pot ($0.09 rake)
Final Board: 5

8

A

K

Hero mucked J

J

and lost (-$0.95 net)
CO mucked and won $1.98 ($1.03 net)

 

[John A]

What time is the sweat today and who's playing?

You are.

 

[John A]

General Default lines for 3Betting OOP postflop ?????

As the 3Better OOP Do you go for value or showdown as so difficult to get value when OOP. I got check raised in one hand then this hand I went for showdown

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.02 (100.4 bb) 20/8 AG30%
Hero (BB): $5 (100 bb)
UTG: $8.81 (176.2 bb)
MP: $3.79 (75.8 bb)
CO: $2.33 (46.6 bb)
BTN: $5.53 (110.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

J

4 folds, SB raises to $0.14, Hero raises to $0.42, SB calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.84) Q

9

5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.84) 6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

River: ($1.54) T

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

Results: $3.54 pot ($0.15 rake)
Final Board: Q

9

5

6

T

SB showed 8

7

and won $3.39 ($1.62 net)
Hero mucked J

J

and lost (-$1.77 net)

Sorry, why didn't you bet the flop? You're not OOP so not understanding your question.

 

[John A]

similar to above, but this time i cbet although prob cbet higher.

Is it just a case of WA/WB when OOP

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $9.38 (187.6 bb)
BB: $6.33 (126.6 bb)
UTG: $15.72 (314.4 bb)
MP: $23.86 (477.2 bb)
CO: $5.65 (113 bb)32/20 32% ag 42 hands
BTN: $5.25 (105 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

J

UTG raises to $0.12, MP folds, CO calls $0.12, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, CO calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.97) 5

8

A

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.07) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1, Hero folds

Results: $2.07 pot ($0.09 rake)
Final Board: 5

8

A

K

Hero mucked J

J

and lost (-$0.95 net)
CO mucked and won $1.98 ($1.03 net)

It's not a similar hand to the previous one. You didn't raise enough pre-flop. I'd tend to bet 3/4ths on the flop against someone like this unless you're planning to go for turn value. I think someone w/ a range that's a little too wide will still have and call on that flop for that sizing w/ 8x, 67, mid pairs, Ax. So you either want to bet like you did on the flop, planning to bet most turns (which in this case I would have), or bet large and then give up when they call.