Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[rhombus]

I mean I guess if your raise size pre-flop was a mislick, then it's ok. That's a lot of donking around versus an unknown though, which is typically a recipe for disaster. And even though you have odds and position, I'd probably let it go pre-flop simply because you don't know anything really about this opponent, and you aren't even 100 bbs deep.

As played I like the flop check, and I think you call the turn at this point. If he's going to donk around like that, then he could have anything at this point. So call and use your position and see what he does on the river.

I actually folded when they reraised - trying to tighten up although hindsight call and then fold to a bet on river if i dont hit another Jack or Ace. may call smallish bet

 

[John A]

Yeah, I figured you called when they re-raised. It's a little too goofy though and they could be a total donk. So in spots like this, if you have position that's huge because your opponents will rarely bluff the river after you call this turn CR. If they shove the river, then it's usually a good fold.

 

[Figaroo2]

bluff on a wet board against loose passive.

(poker stars) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, September 30, 01:26:49 ET 2014
Table Ophelia II (real money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 5, AF: 2.6, hands: 397
Seat 2: Player2 ( $53.82 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 11, 3B: 5, AF: 3.5, Hands: 572
Seat 3: Hero ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 10, 3B: 4, AG%: 42, Hands: 132
Seat 4: Player4 ( $47.55 USD ) - VPIP: 9, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 11
Seat 5: Player5 ( $26.93 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 6, AF: 2.2, Hands: 134
Seat 6: Player6 ( $24.95 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 17, 3B: 4, AF: 4.9, Hands: 476
Seat 7: Player7 ( $17.32 USD ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 12
Seat 8: Player8 ( $11.16 USD ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 22, 3B: 0, AG%17, Hands: 9
Player6 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player7 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qs Ks ]
Player8 raises [$0.75 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Hero calls [$0.75 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.75 USD]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 9c, 8d ]
Player8 bets [$1.24 USD]
Hero calls [$1.24 USD]
Player4 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]
Player8 checks
Hero bets [$2.42 USD]
Player8 calls [$2.42 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
Player8 checks
Hero bets [$7.10 USD]
Player8 folds
Hero wins $7.10 USD
Hero wins $9.47 USD from main pot.
Villain said in the chat box "you must have had AJ then".

 

[rhombus]

can you classify as passive when only 9 hands

I may have checked back the turn with Overcards gutshot and flush draw, wouldnt want to get blasted away.

Would you have called if they had made big check raise??

Looks like they had AK, AQ most likely AQ for the gutshot. Good bet on river although you could prob bet less on river, $5 which would have took it down

EDit just noticed they had shortstack so auto call if they shoved turn.
PS if they were full stacked would you still bet the turn??

 

[Figaroo2]

What do we do on the river here three handed?

(Poker Stars) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, September 30, 02:32:02 ET 2014
Table West II (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $26.20 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 17, 3B: 2, AF: 5.0, Hands: 379
Seat 2: Player2 ( $13.33 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.0, Hands: 117
Seat 4: Player4 ( $33.85 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 15, 3B: 10, AF: 3.0, Hands: 108
Seat 5: Player5 ($21.93 USD) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 10, 3B: 7, AG% 45, Hands: 90
Seat 6: Hero ($26.88 USD) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AG% 39 , Hands: 280
Seat 7: Player7 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 7, AF: 3.2, Hands: 214
Seat 8: Player8 ($26.74 USD) VPIP: 11, PFR: 8, 3B: 6, AG%38 , Hands:147
Seat 9: Player9 ( $26.11 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 1.7, Hands: 77
Player2 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 7s 7c ]
Player5 raises [$0.75 USD]
Hero calls [$0.75 USD]
Player7 folds
Player8 calls [$0.75 USD]
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player4 calls [$0.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, 7h, 6c ]
Player4 checks
Player5 bets [$1.25 USD]
Hero calls [$1.25 USD]
Player8 calls [$1.25 USD]
Player4 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
Player5 checks
Hero bets [$3.27 USD] sizing here? comments welcome
Player8 calls [$3.27 USD]
Player5 calls [$3.27 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
Player5 checks
Hero??
$15.91 pot at this point.....Feels like I should bet, but I can't see either calling much without a 4 in which case I'm beat. A small raise or check might induce an unwanted bluff.
Stuck here didn't know what to do!

 

[Figaroo2]

stinker

ouch, that dented my session

 

[Figaroo2]

Calling has benefits sometimes

(Full Tilt) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, October 01, 04:31:01 ET 2014
Table Cab (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $23.80 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 17, 3B: 10, AF: 3.9, Hands: 151
Seat 2: Player2 ( $29.32 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 10, 3B: 2, AF: 1.8, Hands: 475
Seat 3: Player3 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 11, 3B: 5, AF: 1.7, Hands: 265
Seat 4: Player4 ( $24.40 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 6.0, Hands: 46
Seat 5: Player5 ( $24.60 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 10, 3B: 0, AF: 3.5, Hands: 109
Seat 6: Player6 ( $14.13 USD ) - VPIP: 31, PFR: 23, 3B: 7, AF: 2.8, Hands: 48
Seat 7: Player7 ( $39.30 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 1.8, Hands: 504
Seat 8: Hero ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 4, AG% 42, Hands: 307
Seat 9: Player9 ( $32.49 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 16, 3B: 8, AF: 4.7, Hands: 316
Player9 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player1 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Kh ]
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 raises [$0.75 USD]
Player7 folds
Hero calls [$0.75 USD] Player 1 is aggressive preflop and I don't want the fishy opener to go away.
Player9 folds
Player1 calls [$0.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, Kc, 6d ]
Player1 checks
Player6 bets [$1.25 USD]
Hero calls [$1.25 USD]
Player1 calls [$1.25 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
Player1 checks
Player6 checks
Hero bets [$1.00 USD] trying to look like a weak shot at the pot
Player1 raises [$8.50 USD]
Player6 folds
Hero calls [$7.50 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
Player1 bets [$13.30 USD]
Hero calls [$13.30 USD]
Player1 shows [Ad, 9d ]
Hero shows [Ks, Kh ]
Hero wins $47.22 USD from main pot:thrasher:

a much better session

 

[youregoodmate]

KK hand: 3b pre. Bet way more OTT, that sizing is horrible imo, lucky to get raised. OTR is villain all in?

 

[Figaroo2]

KK hand: 3b pre. Bet way more OTT, that sizing is horrible imo, lucky to get raised. OTR is villain all in?

Yes normally I would 3 bet and play it in a more normal fashion but i didn't explain better that I was playing this as a meta game hand against the BB who had already 3bet me several times across the 4 tables I had open in this session . I hadn't been 3 betting muchin this session myself and thought the fish opener might have gone away if I did. imo the sizing on the turn provoked exactly what it was considered for.....to have someone overplay their hand. lm not sure that the BB would have stacked off with 2pair otherwise. Not 3betting enough is a weakness in my game but when you haven't been 3betting enough people will fold when you do so it makes perverted sense to call here

 

[John A]

If you're against an aggressive player, then 3-betting is great because unless you've been a total nit, you should still get some action. Plus being this deep you want to reduce your SPR because it can get quite strange otherwise.

I think the bottom line here though is, don't try and induce people with these kinds of spots. Just go for max value. The issue you're falling into is you're not aggressive enough in a lot of spots, so you've convinced yourself you have to get tricky/trappy, which you don't need to at these stakes. Just try and go for max value. If your opponent doesn't have a hand on the turn it's unlikely he's going to try and bluff you off. He went for value here, and maybe if you bet more he might even have GIAI on the turn because in his mind, it's very unlikely you have AK. So he most likely has the best hand. The worse case could have been that a club or J or something hits on the river and your opponent checks, you shove and he folds. That would have been a disaster. You have to make sure you're also accounting for scare cards that could ruin your ability to extract max value.

 

[Figaroo2]

Thanks John you are spot on as usual.
I think my general lack of three betting is my biggest single issue in my game at the moment as it leads directly to the leak of calling too much in the blinds when i should be 3 three betting or folding .
When I let my 3bet get down below 4% when I do three bet my premiums I get no action from anything other than very strong holdings. This leads to me ending up playing hands like the one above.
The lack of three betting stems from a lack of confidence playing the weak end of the polarized 3 bet range.
I understand better now why we should be 3 betting more in position rather than from the blinds as it is much easier to play from ip .
although there are plenty of people out there who are like 22% 3bet in the bb and I seem to have the perception that fewer players are folding pre to 3 bets generally and it takes more barrelling to get them off hands.

 

[Figaroo2]

I dropped down to 10nl on 888which is just the softest game ever to practice my three betting and didn't/couldn't get any of the fish to fold their limps or min openings until I made it at least x6-7. I will check later but I found myself limping along in the blinds again rather than 3bet the weaker part of the polarized range against fish who can't fold pre.
I did however end up winning 3 buyins at 150bb per 100 hands.
Just as an aside. Dave the 'Langolier' from pokerstars School Online has agreed to do a review of my run in wcoop22 as one of his live training sessions. gulp

 

[John A]

Thanks John you are spot on as usual.
I think my general lack of three betting is my biggest single issue in my game at the moment as it leads directly to the leak of calling too much in the blinds when i should be 3 three betting or folding .
When I let my 3bet get down below 4% when I do three bet my premiums I get no action from anything other than very strong holdings. This leads to me ending up playing hands like the one above.
The lack of three betting stems from a lack of confidence playing the weak end of the polarized 3 bet range.
I understand better now why we should be 3 betting more in position rather than from the blinds as it is much easier to play from ip .
although there are plenty of people out there who are like 22% 3bet in the bb and I seem to have the perception that fewer players are folding pre to 3 bets generally and it takes more barrelling to get them off hands.

Well, the good news is it's fixable. You've already improved your game 10 fold. You just need to keep at it with these other parts and you're going to be crushing pretty well.

Read back over the section on 3-betting in polished poker. It's about as straight forward as an explanation as you're going to get on how to polarize and depolarize your range effectively. I don't three bet a ton. I 3-bet just enough to get action, and steal in the right spots. I've posted some of my stats and I think I'm about 8.6% or somewhere around there. It's all about position and opponent recognition. It's really as simple as that. Have some confidence in what you're doing and you'll be just fine. But like we've said before, start with the CO and btn and open your range there. You're right that less people are folding to 3-bets, but that's primarily when THEY have position. When they don't, it's really tough to play hands effectively when you're about 100bbs deep OOP. So put your opponents in the tough position, you stay out of the tough spots, and simplify the game for yourself.

Keep at it man, you're doing good!

 

[John A]

Just as an aside. Dave the 'Langolier' from Pokerstars School Online has agreed to do a review of my run in wcoop22 as one of his live training sessions. gulp

I think that's cool. Take all of he free training that you can get, and keep studying your game. I think that should be a cool opportunity.

 

[J_Slice]

You're right that less people are folding to 3-bets, but that's primarily when THEY have position. When they don't, it's really tough to play hands effectively when you're about 100bbs deep OOP. So put your opponents in the tough position, you stay out of the tough spots, and simplify the game for yourself.

Great advice. It is something I have to keep repeating in my head. Don't put myself in tough spots OOP, make it easier.

Also your Youtube videos have been extremely helpful to me lately. I have started the book, but I absorb much more by listening/watching. I will definitely finish it in the near future. Thank you for the quality stuff, it is appreciated.

 

[John A]

Great advice. It is something I have to keep repeating in my head. Don't put myself in tough spots OOP, make it easier.

Also your Youtube videos have been extremely helpful to me lately. I have started the book, but I absorb much more by listening/watching. I will definitely finish it in the near future. Thank you for the quality stuff, it is appreciated.

Sooo simple, but so hard to do sometimes.

Yes, you're welcome. Hey, I said it in here several months back. Anyone who wants to put some work in, and participate in this thread I'm going to help. I'll give as much as I have, and as long as you do the same we'll be good. You guys can support each other, get some serious strategy discussion going, and hopefully I can function as a solid sounding board. Then we all learn and get better at this thing.

We have several guys that have been in here that are making huge improvements from what I'm seeing. I'm a little surprised there aren't more people in CC in here consistently, but to each their own.

 

[rhombus]

Sooo simple, but so hard to do sometimes.

Yes, you're welcome. Hey, I said it in here several months back. Anyone who wants to put some work in, and participate in this thread I'm going to help. I'll give as much as I have, and as long as you do the same we'll be good. You guys can support each other, get some serious strategy discussion going, and hopefully I can function as a solid sounding board. Then we all learn and get better at this thing.

We have several guys that have been in here that are making huge improvements from what I'm seeing. I'm a little surprised there aren't more people in CC in here consistently, but to each their own.

Im surprised too that there aren't more, maybe the length of the thread at 35 pages.

My biggest regret not being in from the start i dipped in and out as didnt have the time with other commitments.

Probably best way to learn to discuss even whether right or wrong and as you say you was the guiding sounding board along the way

Not sure if different threads for different parts of the game would have helped. Would have been easier to navigate

 

[youregoodmate]

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 50.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 108 BB (VPIP: 19.30, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 59)
Hero (BB): 117.8 BB
UTG: 102.6 BB (VPIP: 14.67, PFR: 10.87, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 188)
MP: 131.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
CO: 101.8 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J:club: A:diamond:

fold, fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 6.4 BB, CO calls 4.4 BB

Flop: (13.2 BB, 2 players) 4:spade: K:club: 8:club:
Hero bets 9 BB, CO calls 9 BB

Turn: (31.2 BB, 2 players) K:heart:
Hero bets 21 BB, CO calls 21 BB

River: (73.2 BB, 2 players) Q:spade:
Hero bets 52.6 BB

 

[youregoodmate]

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 142.8 BB
SB: 108 BB (VPIP: 62.50, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
BB: 130.6 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
UTG: 281.2 BB (VPIP: 23.81, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 7.81, Hands: 171)
MP: 106.2 BB (VPIP: 22.39, PFR: 17.91, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 71)
CO: 115 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:diamond: J:spade:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9 BB, 3 players) 6:diamond: 5:diamond: K:spade:
SB checks, BB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, SB calls 4 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 3 players) T:heart:
SB checks, BB bets 7 BB, Hero raises to 24 BB, SB calls 24 BB, fold

River: (76 BB, 2 players) T:club:
SB checks, Hero bets 111.8 BB and is all-in

 

[rhombus]

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Full Tilt)
$10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, October 06, 12:07:13 ET 2014
Table Flab (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $12.97 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 39
Seat 2: Player2 ( $12.04 USD ) - VPIP: 41, PFR: 33, 3B: 18, AF: 11.0, Hands: 39
Seat 3: Player3 ( $14.70 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 8, 3B: 5, AF: 5.0, Hands: 39
Seat 4: Hero ( $8.97 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 11812
Seat 5: Player5 ( $9.90 USD ) - VPIP: 32, PFR: 19, 3B: 6, AF: 2.3, Hands: 47
Seat 6: Player6 ( $5.23 USD ) - VPIP: 37, PFR: 20, 3B: 0, AF: 0.5, Hands: 35
Player5 posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Player6 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Td 9d ]
Player1 folds
Player2 raises [$0.35 USD]
Player3 folds
Hero calls [$0.35 USD]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 8d, 2s ]
Player2 bets [$0.60 USD]
Hero calls [$0.60 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
Player2 bets [$1.85 USD]
Hero calls [$1.85 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
Player2 checks
Hero ??

How much do i bet the river? or do I check back? or Raise Flop? or Shove Turn?

 

[Figaroo2]

(Full Tilt) $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, October 05, 06:24:18 ET 2014
Table Ox (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $10.00 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 2.3, Hands: 1249
Seat 2: Player2 ( $6.80 USD ) - VPIP: 64, PFR: 9, 3B: 10, AF: 1.2, Hands: 33
Seat 3: Player3 ( $10.00 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 13, 3B: 5, AF: 2.0, Hands: 547
Seat 4: Hero ( $11.15 USD )
Seat 5: Player5 ( $23.95 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 9, 3B: 5, AF: 3.6, Hands: 196
Seat 6: Player6 ( $7.63 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 1.7, Hands: 49
Seat 8: Player8 ( $3.67 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 2.6, Hands: 321
Seat 9: Player9 ( $10.00 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 2.3, Hands: 139
Player2 posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kc Kd ]
Hero raises [$0.25 USD]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 calls [$0.20 USD]
Player3 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, 3h, 2d ]
Player2 checks
Hero checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
Player2 bets [$0.20 USD]
Hero calls [$0.20 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
Player2 bets [$0.10 USD]
Hero raises [$0.94 USD]
Player2 raises [$6.25 USD]
Puke.

 

[youregoodmate]

Rhombus: although we have a small hand sample he does seem aggressive. I'd jam the turn but I'm an aggro donk. I think calling turn and betting the river is fine.

Figaroo: Sickening spot. A fold unfortunately.

 

[mange1234]

Go to the penny games

So I get a email from Full Flush poker, wanting to know why I haven't played for a while, I have about $130 on there.
I open up the site and hang around for 5 mins looking for a seat somewhere and remember why I don't play there often , i've only got 30 mins!! the only seat that is available is at 50nl 10 man. All total unknowns lots of fishy looking stack sizes.
First playable hand I pick up 99 in the BB, EP raises $2 and BTN calls, I call.
Flop 10c 9h 3c.
I check raise, EP shoves all in 100bb, btn calls 100bb!!!!!
I tank for a while and decide to call it off i'm only behind one hand but you just know there is going to be at least one decent draw.
EP has AcQc, BTN has 10 9 for 2 pair so I'm in good shape 61% fav.
River was a 10 and the 150 bucks slides to the guy with 9% equity. hum de dum, feel like ive been kicked in the gut, every time I step up its the same.

I use to get those emails also. But, to keep into computer system as an active player, I will go to the .01/.02 Rings, NLH and play a few hands. Then leave. That seems to satisfy the computer programs that generate those messages.

Last time I did that, I played one hand, won 29 cents and left the table. lol

Mike

 

[Figaroo2]

Dave The Langolier from PSO has agreed to do a tourney review for me looking at my run in wcoop22.
It will be a live training class on Saturday the 18th Oct at 15ET

Yes yourgoodmate....aggro is the right word for your two AJ hands...not sure about the first one though, cannot see are you going to get him off a king looks a bit spewy that 1st one but the 2nd one looks fine..

Rhom: he is very aggressive so calling looks ok, but as soon as he checks the river it looks to me like he thinks he's beat. You have to bet the river to win the hand, id go for 75% pot which looks like value rather than a shove.
If he was less aggro you could raise flop or turn and likely get a free card or two....

 

[youregoodmate]

Yes yourgoodmate....aggro is the right word for your two AJ hands...not sure about the first one though, cannot see are you going to get him off a king looks a bit spewy that 1st one but the 2nd one looks fine..

I actually won one hand and lost one, not saying which yet mind.

I figured I would maybe hear from a King on the turn. The flush also misses so I think this works often enough to be profitable but my maths on this side of the game is poor.