I Know It's Been Whispered Before But Durrrr Broke?

[vanquish]

so durrrr, the best online player ever (cept prahlad i guess, but that was like 3 years ago) is going to go busto soon because this "3 million dollar swing" is going to lead to him selling all of his assets, always playing for 100% of his own action, playing with no edge, and playing on tilt, and eventually losing all his money, despite the anguished cries of his many friends and family members who support him, telling him to stop. kool story hansel.

 

[KingCurtis]

Didnt he start at 10NL?

sngs on some random site....its on some interview with him on youtube somewhere..

 

[brianvoytek]

Sorry I guess you didn't say the other things, but Brian did. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, you just had that last post so I quoted it. So I pose the question to Brian. Why does the last few weeks mean more than the last year? Why does it also mean more than today? There's both a more recent short term AND longer term span where he crushes (7.14 PTBB/100 even after the downswing. Anyone here even beating 50nl for that much?)

I said those things? Interesting. I never said the last weeks mean more. I didn't say anything means more today. So get your facts straight AGAIN please because your love for Dwan is blinding you from what people are ACTUALLY saying.

Let me make this clear so you don't mess up again.

I respect the kid. I think he has done a lot to add more interest in poker. I think he has bit off more then he can chew with these challenges. His ego is getting in the way along with people thinking he's God. Have you ever watched one of his sessions? Watched some of his plays? You can put all the numbers out there but he's more of a luckbox then anything else. So you can pull stats out and show everything he's done since the beginning but right now he's on a losing streak and his luck has run out...for now. Will he come back from this "losing streak"? More then likely. But until he's around for a few years and has done more then win side games, I'll say he's an average player with a lot of hype. Is that wrong? Would we be having this dispute If I was talking about Phil G or Ziig? I don't think so, people don't care about them, they ignore what David B has been doing online and focus on guys with "hype". The stereotypical "internet poker" player. The person everyone wants to be, the kid whos fresh outta prom and living the dream. That's great, but don't tell me he's one of the best in the world or that he's even in the top 10.

Now, we can agree to disagree. But understand what I'm saying and don't let your love blind you.

Thanks.

 

[Crystal Blue]

Currently active poker players online or otherwise, micro stakes or nosebleed, winning or losing, are still a work in progress are they not.
I would of thought we can clearly agree that Doyle Brunson for instance will end his poker career as a big time winning player.
The obvious reason for thinking/knowing that would be because it wouldn't surprise any of us if Doyle's last act on this earth was raising a pot. So we can conclude he will retire ahead of the way by a big margin.

There are other long time very successful pro poker players out there that we can pretty much conclude will end their days big winners from the game, but of course we don't know for sure.
There are also well known players out there who we might think to ourselves "Hmm, I'm not sure this guy is going to keep his past winnings if he carries on like this".

Some very successful players up to this point are in their infancy so far as their poker career's go assuming they will still be around doing what they do in 5, 10, 20 years.
Can we assume they will remain successful? for what it's worth, I don't think we can. No more so than they themselves can.
If we could all predict the future, there would be no future. Current success can give us a sort of indication as to where a players future might be going but nothing is a given.

If you play poker right to the end, you know, until you die, and there are stats available to measure your success or failure, I guess only then we can see how your whole poker life went.
That would be your end result I guess. If perhaps you dropped out of the poker world at some point in your life and never went back, that too would give us the end result of your win/loss.

But one thing none of us can do is know the end result while we still play the game. The likes of Doyle Brunson aside that is.
Some players are more open to destruction than others. Some will always want to be at the highest end of where the action is.
I guess those types are more open to going bust than the more placid types who happily go about their business somewhat under the radar.

It's not over till it's over, and when it is over, that to me will be the time when the count begins.

 

[brianvoytek]

Currently active poker players online or otherwise, micro stakes or nosebleed, winning or losing, are still a work in progress are they not.
I would of thought we can clearly agree that Doyle Brunson for instance will end his poker career as a big time winning player.
The obvious reason for thinking/knowing that would be because it wouldn't surprise any of us if Doyle's last act on this earth was raising a pot. So we can conclude he will retire ahead of the way by a big margin.

There are other long time very successful pro poker players out there that we can pretty much conclude will end their days big winners from the game, but of course we don't know for sure.
There are also well known players out there who we might think to ourselves "Hmm, I'm not sure this guy is going to keep his past winnings if he carries on like this".

Some very successful players up to this point are in their infancy so far as their poker career's go assuming they will still be around doing what they do in 5, 10, 20 years.
Can we assume they will remain successful? for what it's worth, I don't think we can. No more so than they themselves can.
If we could all predict the future, there would be no future. Current success can give us a sort of indication as to where a players future might be going but nothing is a given.

If you play poker right to the end, you know, until you die, and there are stats available to measure your success or failure, I guess only then we can see how your whole poker life went.
That would be your end result I guess. If perhaps you dropped out of the poker world at some point in your life and never went back, that too would give us the end result of your win/loss.

But one thing none of us can do is know the end result while we still play the game. The likes of Doyle Brunson aside that is.
Some players are more open to destruction than others. Some will always want to be at the highest end of where the action is.
I guess those types are more open to going bust than the more placid types who happily go about their business somewhat under the radar.

It's not over till it's over, and when it is over, that to me will be the time when the count begins.

That's not completely true. A lot of the big name pros have other things besides poker and don't need to play anymore. Doyle is one person who doesnt need to play poker as much as he used too. I'm sure he'll play those big tourneys and of course the big game and High Stakes Poker on GSN, but he's not hurting for money. He's made good investments and has done well in his career.

People don't need to die and get judged, there's only one person that does that and that's the big guy upstairs. Besides him, you can see how a person has done over the past 10-20 years and see what they've done in their career. How good were they, how bad. Take sports for instance. You can't tell now who the good players are and the bad?

I think after about 5 years and some WSOPs under his belt, we'll get a better idea how good Dwan is. Don't get me wrong, you don't need just WSOPs to be considered a great player but it helps a lot.

One other thing I wanted to mention. There's a show on NowLive.com, it's a online radio show. Mike The Mouths Brother, Scott hosts the show and talks about pretty much anything. He's not a poker player, he does play here and there but its not his living. I spoke to him about Dwan and he told me a few things about him and how badly he sucks live. If you doubt it, I'll let you know when the next show is on and you can ask him yourself. That's one persons opinion, but I'm sure because it's "The Mouths" Brother people don't care. People also don't care how Phil Helmuth puts him down more then anyone he's ever played against. But he's "The Brat" so most people don't care.

 

[S93]

I said those things? Interesting. I never said the last weeks mean more. I didn't say anything means more today. So get your facts straight AGAIN please because your love for Dwan is blinding you from what people are ACTUALLY saying.

Let me make this clear so you don't mess up again.

I respect the kid. I think he has done a lot to add more interest in poker. I think he has bit off more then he can chew with these challenges. His ego is getting in the way along with people thinking he's God. Have you ever watched one of his sessions? Watched some of his plays? You can put all the numbers out there but he's more of a luckbox then anything else. So you can pull stats out and show everything he's done since the beginning but right now he's on a losing streak and his luck has run out...for now. Will he come back from this "losing streak"? More then likely. But until he's around for a few years and has done more then win side games, I'll say he's an average player with a lot of hype. Is that wrong? Would we be having this dispute If I was talking about Phil G or Ziig? I don't think so, people don't care about them, they ignore what David B has been doing online and focus on guys with "hype". The stereotypical "internet poker" player. The person everyone wants to be, the kid whos fresh outta prom and living the dream. That's great, but don't tell me he's one of the best in the world or that he's even in the top 10.

Now, we can agree to disagree. But understand what I'm saying and don't let your love blind you.

Thanks.

Ever heard the term short term luck is king,long run skill is key?
Cause even thou this is a massive downswing he is on,its still a downswing.
I agree with one thing thou,that HU challenge is probably just some ego trip.
But he is still the online pokers highes earner,he has probably played more hands then even the great Doyle Brunson,so what more does he have to do before he is just a luckbox(witch btw is a insane statment)?

Hell i dont even percive durrrr as a likable person form his numerous tv apperances but calling him a luck box,and saying lets wait and see is just stupid imo.

And for the kicker.

Durrr´s profits from 4/1/08 7,2M(including his downswing,and he has been playing the noise bleed a lot longer then a year) 7,2/100
Zigs profits from 4/1/08 -980K(yeah thats minus at the noise bleeds in the last year) -3,8/100
David B profits from 4/1/08 1,5M 2,05/100
OMGclayaken profits form 4/1/08 3M 7,86/100

 

[frady2001]

according to that site he is up on Patrik over a million.

 

[zachvac]

I respect the kid. I think he has done a lot to add more interest in poker. I think he has bit off more then he can chew with these challenges. His ego is getting in the way along with people thinking he's God. Have you ever watched one of his sessions? Watched some of his plays?

Yes I do occaisionally watch Railhaven.

You can put all the numbers out there but he's more of a luckbox then anything else.

umm what?

So you can pull stats out and show everything he's done since the beginning but right now he's on a losing streak and his luck has run out...for now. Will he come back from this "losing streak"?

When Albert Pujols goes 0-4 one game do people all of a sudden question if all the HRs and hits were just luck and his good streak's done? He has years of positive results and then 2 weeks he slumps and you're ready to say he was just a luckbox the entire time?

More then likely. But until he's around for a few years and has done more then win side games, I'll say he's an average player with a lot of hype.

Side games take more skill, and pay more money, than the tourneys do. And lol at average player. He's beating the highest games on the internet for a higher winrate than you have at whatever stakes you're playing.

Is that wrong? Would we be having this dispute If I was talking about Phil G or Ziig? I don't think so, people don't care about them, they ignore what David B has been doing online and focus on guys with "hype". The stereotypical "internet poker" player.

Well other than Ziig, who is actually a losing player according to the online databases, the other two are both amazing and I would say you were full of shit if you called them average players too. Phil Galfond is the player Dwan exempted from the challenge. Obviously he has a ton of respect for him and so does pretty much everyone. David B is also a phenomenal poker player. If you throw in Ivey you probably have the top few online players period.

The person everyone wants to be, the kid whos fresh outta prom and living the dream. That's great, but don't tell me he's one of the best in the world or that he's even in the top 10.

What ranking system do you use that has him not in the top 10? He's got an edge playing at basically the higihest stakes game that runs on the internet. He's sometimes sitting with 5 other people that are probably in the top 10. Granted he takes some from people like Laliberte, but he is literally CRUSHING the biggest game that runs. Again, I doubt you beat 50nl for that winrate. I know I'm not winning at that rate and I'm not playing some of the best players online.

Now, we can agree to disagree. But understand what I'm saying and don't let your love blind you.

Thanks.

lol it's not love. Like I said I'd defend people like Benyamine, Ivey, Galfond, etc. They all are amazing players and it's not like durrrr just came on the scene last month. He's been around for awhile and he even mentioned on PAD about a 2M downswing he had before. The guy knows that it's possible to lose but he also over the long run has shown to be able to crush the game. To call him average is like calling Michael Jordan average because he only scored 10 points one game when his team lost.

 

[brianvoytek]

Just like I said before, watch him play for awhile. When I watched him play he put his money in with the worst and just called off a lot of money to Ivey. (This is this week too.)

As for the David B statement, I didnt say David was better. I'm talking about how he's been running now. People are high on Dwan for running good and being up, why not talk about David running good or Ziig?

More hands then Doyle? Who cares. There was no internet then. Can you imagine If Barry Sanders played back in the 50s? He would've had 9345893453 yards rushing. lol These are different times now, so seeing more hands then someone who's basically "The God of the Game" doesn't hold much weight.

Dwan on TV wasn't much. He sucked out on Phil in the HU Challenge then acted like a child (not a 19-20 year old whatever he was at the time) who said over and over "play me heads up...play me heads up." He's trying to hard to get there and with his ego and everyone whos hyping him up doesnt help.

Remember a kid named Stu Ungar?

 

[Crystal Blue]

To Brian, I'm talking strictly poker winnings/losses. I didn't include outside stuff.
But if a player plays with money earned outside of direct table poker earnings, fair enough.
Though I would measure it on what he came with, and what he left with.

EDIT: Oh and for the record, I'm not into the guy upstairs too much .

 

[zachvac]

That's not completely true. A lot of the big name pros have other things besides poker and don't need to play anymore. Doyle is one person who doesnt need to play poker as much as he used too. I'm sure he'll play those big tourneys and of course the big game and High Stakes Poker on GSN, but he's not hurting for money. He's made good investments and has done well in his career.

Just so you know HSP is considered entertainment for them and most of them aren't playing the best they can they are simply advertising an image. Galfond sat and played like a nit which he said he thought was optimal because the other players were playing so badly and got booted after a day even though he was scheduled for a second day. It's a show, not real poker.

People don't need to die and get judged, there's only one person that does that and that's the big guy upstairs. Besides him, you can see how a person has done over the past 10-20 years and see what they've done in their career. How good were they, how bad. Take sports for instance. You can't tell now who the good players are and the bad?

Funny you mention that. Pretty sure Dwan has played more hands than Doyle did his first 20 years.

I think after about 5 years and some WSOPs under his belt, we'll get a better idea how good Dwan is. Don't get me wrong, you don't need just WSOPs to be considered a great player but it helps a lot.

I'm going to be blunt. WSOPs don't mean shit in poker. There is a ton of luck involved, and the long-run in big MTTs like those can be several lifetimes. The difference between 0 and 5 bracelets is just a few coin flips. I think ROI in the wsop would be a bigger indicator, but even that I think he'd rather play the side cash games that run there.

One other thing I wanted to mention. There's a show on NowLive.com, it's a online radio show. Mike The Mouths Brother, Scott hosts the show and talks about pretty much anything. He's not a poker player, he does play here and there but its not his living. I spoke to him about Dwan and he told me a few things about him and how badly he sucks live. If you doubt it, I'll let you know when the next show is on and you can ask him yourself. That's one persons opinion, but I'm sure because it's "The Mouths" Brother people don't care. People also don't care how Phil Helmuth puts him down more then anyone he's ever played against. But he's "The Brat" so most people don't care.

Hellmuth is bad in real poker. He knows how to play tournaments and push or fold. But I am 100% serious when I say I'd like to sit with Hellmuth in a cash game. Maybe I'm wrong, but everything I've seen I believe I have an edge on him in cash game play. Tourney play is an entirely different story, but in real deepstacked poker I'll take Hellmuth all day. Watch PAD and if you know anything about poker you can see how badly Hellmuth gets owned. The thing is you're getting opinions from people who don't know what good live play is. Ask Ivey, Negreanu, Cunningham, Brunson, etc. I don't know how much he's played with them but if you can get someone like that to say he sucks live, then I'll admit you're right. But asking Matusow's brother?

 

[pantin007]

Just like I said before, watch him play for awhile. When I watched him play he put his money in with the worst and just called off a lot of money to Ivey. (This is this week too.)
the reason the plays look donkish to you, is because u dont understand them
As for the David B statement, I didnt say David was better. I'm talking about how he's been running now. People are high on Dwan for running good and being up, why not talk about David running good or Ziig?
ppl do
More hands then Doyle? Who cares. There was no internet then. Can you imagine If Barry Sanders played back in the 50s? He would've had 9345893453 yards rushing. lol These are different times now, so seeing more hands then someone who's basically "The God of the Game" doesn't hold much weight.
bad comparison imo
Dwan on TV wasn't much. He sucked out on Phil in the HU Challenge then acted like a child (not a 19-20 year old whatever he was at the time) who said over and over "play me heads up...play me heads up." He's trying to hard to get there and with his ego and everyone whos hyping him up doesnt help.
lol are u forgetting how phil acted?
Remember a kid named Stu Ungar?

waiting for zach to own you, edit: he did

 

[S93]

Just like I said before, watch him play for awhile. When I watched him play he put his money in with the worst and just called off a lot of money to Ivey. (This is this week too.)

As for the David B statement, I didnt say David was better. I'm talking about how he's been running now. People are high on Dwan for running good and being up, why not talk about David running good or Ziig?

More hands then Doyle? Who cares. There was no internet then. Can you imagine If Barry Sanders played back in the 50s? He would've had 9345893453 yards rushing. lol These are different times now, so seeing more hands then someone who's basically "The God of the Game" doesn't hold much weight.

Dwan on TV wasn't much. He sucked out on Phil in the HU Challenge then acted like a child (not a 19-20 year old whatever he was at the time) who said over and over "play me heads up...play me heads up." He's trying to hard to get there and with his ego and everyone whos hyping him up doesnt help.

Remember a kid named Stu Ungar?

You said that durrrr was just a luckbox,how can any one be a luckbox seeing so many hands?
The long run is reach by playing more hands,there for theoraticly durrrr should be further into the long run then Doyle ever will be so how is Doyle a great player and durrrr a "avrage player"?

Also durrrr challenging Helmuth to HU is more of a way to try to make money then beeing childish since its comon presabtion that Hellmuth(the arguable best tournement player in the world) is a bad ring player and even worse online player.......

 

[brianvoytek]

Yes I do occaisionally watch Railhaven.

umm what?

When Albert Pujols goes 0-4 one game do people all of a sudden question if all the HRs and hits were just luck and his good streak's done? He has years of positive results and then 2 weeks he slumps and you're ready to say he was just a luckbox the entire time?

Side games take more skill, and pay more money, than the tourneys do. And lol at average player. He's beating the highest games on the internet for a higher winrate than you have at whatever stakes you're playing.



Well other than Ziig, who is actually a losing player according to the online databases, the other two are both amazing and I would say you were full of shit if you called them average players too. Phil Galfond is the player Dwan exempted from the challenge. Obviously he has a ton of respect for him and so does pretty much everyone. David B is also a phenomenal poker player. If you throw in Ivey you probably have the top few online players period.

What ranking system do you use that has him not in the top 10? He's got an edge playing at basically the higihest stakes game that runs on the internet. He's sometimes sitting with 5 other people that are probably in the top 10. Granted he takes some from people like Laliberte, but he is literally CRUSHING the biggest game that runs. Again, I doubt you beat 50nl for that winrate. I know I'm not winning at that rate and I'm not playing some of the best players online.

lol it's not love. Like I said I'd defend people like Benyamine, Ivey, Galfond, etc. They all are amazing players and it's not like durrrr just came on the scene last month. He's been around for awhile and he even mentioned on PAD about a 2M downswing he had before. The guy knows that it's possible to lose but he also over the long run has shown to be able to crush the game. To call him average is like calling Michael Jordan average because he only scored 10 points one game when his team lost.

When Al P goes 0-4 one game nobody cares because It's ONE GAME. So that point didnt make much sense.

I never said I was better or anything to assume that. So for you to say "He's beating the highest games on the internet for a higher winrate than you have at whatever stakes you're playing." Isn't a fair statement. We're talking about Dwan, not what I play or how I play.

That's what happens when you have a post about Dwan, people come to his defense and want to put you down for waiting on how he does long term. For people to say he could be playing too high and MIGHT be going is pretty fair. I don't think he has 20 mil in his BR on FT because when did he get that much money? If he was up 3 mil and people talked about it, I'm sure If he was up 10 mil that would be somewhere too right? You can't just be up 3 mil then be down 3 mil and still have 20 mil in your BR. I'm just doing simple math on that one. Since everyone is so stat based and they don't watch him play. I bet we can watch him now, If he's on, and see how well he does and what hands he plays. But I'm sure I'll get a "bad night" and "that's not how he plays".

It's cool. Enjoy him. He's a great player and HOPEFULLY has a long future in poker.

 

[zachvac]

Just like I said before, watch him play for awhile. When I watched him play he put his money in with the worst and just called off a lot of money to Ivey. (This is this week too.)

Do you understand the concept of ranges? Do you realize that Ivey may have had the top of his range when he called it off? Do you realize how aggro Ivey is and how wide his bluffing range is?

As for the David B statement, I didnt say David was better. I'm talking about how he's been running now. People are high on Dwan for running good and being up, why not talk about David running good or Ziig?

Well here's why no one talks about Ziig: http://www.pokertableratings.com/overview/ziigmund

Almost -1 million lifetime. Most guys who lose at poker don't get talked about.

And Benyamine although a winner is winning at 2.05 PTBB/100 compared with Dwan's 7.14. Basically people talk about him because long-term he's crushing the game for more than anyone else. Even Ivey has a lower winrate despite playing a lot less hands, although Ivey's crushing the game as well for over 6 PTBB/100.

More hands then Doyle? Who cares. There was no internet then.

That's irrelevant. Is 20 years for Doyle enough to say he's winning? If it is than this time online for Dwan should be plenty because he's played more hands.

Can you imagine If Barry Sanders played back in the 50s? He would've had 9345893453 yards rushing. lol These are different times now, so seeing more hands then someone who's basically "The God of the Game" doesn't hold much weight.

umm read what I wrote, it wasn't even comparing him with Doyle, it was comparing sample size. If Doyle has a big enough sample size than so does Dwan. Dwan's hands are against the newer better players, so it's not like Barry vs. 50s players, he's been playing guys like Ivey, Benyamine, Hansen, Galfond.

Dwan on TV wasn't much. He sucked out on Phil in the HU Challenge then acted like a child (not a 19-20 year old whatever he was at the time)

lol you watch it? Hellmuth acted like the child. He got coolered, oh no. And he throws his tantrum. Hellmuth acted younger than Dwan was.

who said over and over "play me heads up...play me heads up." He's trying to hard to get there and with his ego and everyone whos hyping him up doesnt help.

No he wanted to play Hellmuth HU. Hellmuth subsequently said that actually Dwan had to pay him a ton of money just to play him. If it had actually happened I'm sure Dwan woulda cleaned him out.

Remember a kid named Stu Ungar?

Yeah he was pretty amazing, what's your point?

 

[brianvoytek]

waiting for zach to own you, edit: he did

A lot of class there. Next thing you'll say will be "play me heads up...play me heads up."

Try not to flame the board. Thanks.

 

[pantin007]

That's what happens when you have a post about Dwan, people come to his defense and want to put you down for waiting on how he does long term.

durrr has played more hands than 98% of ppl therefore he is more long term than most live players

 

[S93]

Zach to be fair PTR has only tracked FTP since 1/4/08 so saying Zig is a lifetime loser isnt really a fair statment imo.

 

[brianvoytek]

Basically everyone is a loser compared to Dwan? lol This is too funny.

 

[pantin007]

Basically everyone is a loser compared to Dwan? lol This is too funny.

nobody said that

 

[brianvoytek]

Every player mentioned is being pretty much wiped out or "lifetime loser".

Not everyone can be like Dwan.

 

[pantin007]

Every player mentioned is being pretty much wiped out or "lifetime loser".

Not everyone can be like Dwan.

because, if u compare them profit wise and winrate wise, durrr has done better than them?

 

[S93]

Basically everyone is a loser compared to Dwan? lol This is too funny.

Yes.
Durrrr has maked more money then any one else online and has the second highest ptbb/100(second to omgclayaken by 0,6) rate of any noisebleed reg, so yeah every one else certenly look like a loser compared to that .

 

[zachvac]

When Al P goes 0-4 one game nobody cares because It's ONE GAME. So that point didnt make much sense.

ok sorry change it to a week. He goes 2 for 20 one week. That's comparable to Dwan's recent small downswing. Even AFTER the downswing, he's up 7 million on TR. I think that's like the last year.

That's what happens when you have a post about Dwan, people come to his defense and want to put you down for waiting on how he does long term. For people to say he could be playing too high and MIGHT be going is pretty fair.

No it's not lol. First off you have no idea if it's all his money, he could easily have backers. Even if not though he's up another 7 million just from poker and I'm sure he has investments outside of poker. So even if at the beginning of the year he started at freerolls and built up the 7 million, which we know is not the case because he won more before that, he still has 70 buy-ins for his limit. I don't have that many buy-ins for the limit I'm playing and I have a lower winrate and really have no fears of going broke.

I don't think he has 20 mil in his BR on FT because when did he get that much money? If he was up 3 mil and people talked about it, I'm sure If he was up 10 mil that would be somewhere too right? You can't just be up 3 mil then be down 3 mil and still have 20 mil in your BR. I'm just doing simple math on that one. Since everyone is so stat based and they don't watch him play. I bet we can watch him now, If he's on, and see how well he does and what hands he plays. But I'm sure I'll get a "bad night" and "that's not how he plays".

He's up 7 million in what I think is the last year or so. How is that 3 mil? If he had a 3 million dollar downswing apparently he was at 10M at one point. And lol at you basically saying you can judge how well he's playing. Do you understand the concept of ranges?

 

[zachvac]

Zach to be fair PTR has only tracked FTP since 1/4/08 so saying Zig is a lifetime loser isnt really a fair statment imo.

Well my answer was to the question of why everyone wasn't hyping Zig. It's because he's a loser in the last year while Dwan's made 7 million in the last year lol.

Thanks for the date though, was wondering how long it went back. Curious if there are any other records of how Dwan did before that.