The Benefits of Aggression (Day 2 Course Discussion)

[Mvr96]

Thank you for the agression tip.
Managed to win a tournament with 45 players this way.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thank you for the agression tip.
Managed to win a tournament with 45 players this way.

Congrats MVR! That's great.

 

[Vallet]

Aggressive draw is not my strong point, unfortunately. But this is an effective way to build up and pick up a good pot. And the most important thing about this part that caught my eye. If an opponent creates difficulties that are hard to resist, take them at your own game, as the book says.

 

[Suzana2304]

When you are playing aggressive you have more chances to win I think ,because the others don't know what do you have and can not catch your bluff.

 

[UkoChebuko]

The aggression (initiative) and the position only matters when you play against thinking player. And when he don't use balanced ranges. Or the aggression and the position actually are just "info". His actions defines his range.

The strength of your hand always matters. If you play some low limits, you must think only about the strenght of your hand. Do you have enough equity for raise (bet)? Do you have enough equity for call? Preflop, OTF, OTT, OTR...Some cheap bluff with useless hand. That's it. Don't be agro. Be just tight...Can be tight-aggressive, but can be also "tight-passive". No problem at all. As long as you are "tight". Tight enough...

 

[UkoChebuko]

I mean don't try to outplay the weak players, but try to "outhit" them (is this a word ?). Leave the aggression to the Hud. He knows when and how...

 

[Katie Dozier]

The aggression (initiative) and the position only matters when you play against thinking player. And when he don't use balanced ranges. Or the aggression and the position actually are just "info". His actions defines his range.

The strength of your hand always matters. If you play some low limits, you must think only about the strenght of your hand. Do you have enough equity for raise (bet)? Do you have enough equity for call? Preflop, OTF, OTT, OTR...Some cheap bluff with useless hand. That's it. Don't be agro. Be just tight...Can be tight-aggressive, but can be also "tight-passive". No problem at all. As long as you are "tight". Tight enough...

I believe that, like you say the strength of your hand always matters, that in fact aggression actually matters when you play against every type of player (not just more advances ones as your posts suggests)--from novices all the way up to experiences pros. As we talk about in this section, playing aggressively is one of the absolute top skills necessary to winning at poker--so much so that we chose to bring it up so early in the course, only on Day 2

 

[UkoChebuko]

You can't "control" anything against fish. You can't exploit them with an aggression. You just use value bets, bluff, if you hand is useless and you expect some FE. Teaching novice players to be aggro as default is not good imo. They must know there to bet as value, there as bluff, there to play slow. Which line is best. How to define a range. How to use the HUD.
I watched some hands in this video. Teaching the people how to use "gigantic raise", well done, Mr. Moshman. And laugh...T9 hand. This can be so simple. Bet OTF, check-back OTT and give up OTR without good hand. And this will be better. Than your play. If we talking about the low limits.
Don't be aggro, don't be loose at the low limits. As default. Use the HUd, use the info. But don't play, like that, as default.

That's I mean, Katie Dozier. My English is bad, maybe you can't understand me, sorry. Your edge at the low limits is the narrow ranges. The HUd...Field tendencies. Country tendencies. The notes...You just can't outplay the people, because they are so weak. Mr Moshman: "What do you think he don't want to see. What he thinks?". He don't think. That is the problem. You play against yourself...

 

[UkoChebuko]

Someone mentioned "the people are 80% overaggro these days". More than 80% imo. AT least 85%, maybe 90%. 2020 year, this is not 2012....Topic named "The Benefits Of Passiveness" will be more usefull .

 

[Collin Moshman]

You can't "control" anything against fish. You can't exploit them with an aggression. You just use value bets, bluff, if you hand is useless and you expect some FE. Teaching novice players to be aggro as default is not good imo. They must know there to bet as value, there as bluff, there to play slow. Which line is best. How to define a range. How to use the HUD.
I watched some hands in this video. Teaching the people how to use "gigantic raise", well done, Mr. Moshman. And laugh...T9 hand. This can be so simple. Bet OTF, check-back OTT and give up OTR without good hand. And this will be better. Than your play. If we talking about the low limits.
Don't be aggro, don't be loose at the low limits. As default. Use the HUd, use the info. But don't play, like that, as default.

There are definitely times when you're correct to play passively. Against a maniac, for example, you should be calling down a lot more frequently (when you're not folding) to allow these players to bluff it off.

Generally though, playing aggressively is the correct approach against both stronger and less experienced players. The reason is because aggressive play gives you an added way to win, keeps the betting lead, and lets you control the size of the pot when playing no-limit.

Note, by the way, that value bets and bluffs are both aggressive actions. So if these are the main tools in your arsenal against recreational opponents, as I believe you're saying in your post, then it seems like you agree with playing aggressively

 

[UkoChebuko]

Sorry, Mr Moshman, I was over aggressive, drunk and tilted. I am one from your "students", SnG shark This knowledge is for free. If you don't like it, just don't "take" it. Keep going...And thank you...

 

[Collin Moshman]

Sorry, Mr Moshman, I was over aggressive, drunk and tilted. I am one from your "students", SnG shark This knowledge is for free. If you don't like it, just don't "take" it. Keep going...And thank you...

Haha no worries, thanks Uko!

While I don't endorse this of course ... drunk and over-aggressive can be a good combination at HUSNG

 

[BigDice75]

Interesting, so far I was never thinking or aware of, that there are neutral actions. Somehow I always considered them to be passive actions. Thank you for the explanation and the video!

I thought the same and this has been a novelty!

 

[Katie Dozier]

I thought the same and this has been a novelty!

I went a long time unaware of this myself!

 

[Peter Nesskquick]

"If you're ever unsure on whether to take a passive or aggressive action, make your default
choose the aggressive one and you'll be well on your way to winning."
These are very strong words. I would like to try them out in practice, but for now I play freerolls and micro limits. The players at the table are usually very aggressive and often lucky, so I try to play more passively until most of the players are eliminated.
But in very difficult situations, I still tend to just avoid losing even more chips and make a fold or check . Such situations are very few, but they often help to pump the skill very much.
Day 2 done. Thanks for the information.

 

[Katie Dozier]

"If you're ever unsure on whether to take a passive or aggressive action, make your default
choose the aggressive one and you'll be well on your way to winning."
These are very strong words. I would like to try them out in practice, but for now I play freerolls and micro limits. The players at the table are usually very aggressive and often lucky, so I try to play more passively until most of the players are eliminated.
But in very difficult situations, I still tend to just avoid losing even more chips and make a fold or check . Such situations are very few, but they often help to pump the skill very much.
Day 2 done. Thanks for the information.

I know that being aggressive can seem counterintuitive at times but as you continue to strive for it you’ll see more and more ways that it benefits you. I know it can be frustrating when others are constantly getting it all in/or making crazy suckouts, but try to keep in mind that it is in your long-term best interest that the players around you are making significant mistakes.

We should try not to fear the table where people are making crazy calls and sucking out right and left. The table we should fear is the one where we don’t see any players making mistakes, because that’s the table at which we are certain to lose long term.

Best of luck as you move along in the course

 

[userme4321]

day 2

The Benefits of Aggression

The best times to use aggressive action is, Pre Flop, Flop, Turn and River.
I believe having an aggressive style is better than good cards. I have a tendency of being passive, simply calling,but no more, aggressive first, neutral is Ok, instead of passive try aggressive! A work in progress for me...

 

[Katie Dozier]

The Benefits of Aggression

The best times to use aggressive action is, Pre Flop, Flop, Turn and River.
I believe having an aggressive style is better than good cards. I have a tendency of being passive, simply calling,but no more, aggressive first, neutral is Ok, instead of passive try aggressive! A work in progress for me...

Haha that’s very true about the best time to be aggressive being at every single street!

 

[okiepokerplayer]

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

I love when the fish limp with As or Ks and let me catch a lowball two pair, set or straight to stack them.

 

[okiepokerplayer]

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

I played at a casino with an older crowd of poker players that liked to play sheriff and trap a lot. This is really a form of aggressive play, IMHO, because they're acting in response to your aggressive play, essentially neutralizing it by trapping you. As was mentioned in the instruction. You don't always have to be aggressive. But it is +EV (or positive expected value) to be aggressive especially preflop and on the river. If you encounter resistance to your aggression then it is advisable to slow down sometimes. Maybe for pot control, or to let the trapper expose their hand strength. I learned pretty quickly, the best way to punish those guys who liked to try to trap was to turn the preflop aggression around on them. When they called my preflop raise or 3 bet I would often check the flop, get a value bet from them on the turn that would expose their hand strength and let me play it more straight forward. You don't have to always c bet the flop, again, especially if you're playing against a table sheriff.

 

[okiepokerplayer]

day 2 done

default play - aggressively

Yes, but also learn to adjust your play style to effectively counter your table opponents. You might find that your OPs at the table will tighten up considerably if you play too aggressively. And this is good actually, it drastically narrows their range. You'll also find that some players might open their ranges up some and start playing back at your aggression. Again, by tightening up yourself you can effectively counter both reactions. You can also use a passive style to trap hyper aggressive players and "train" them into becoming more passive, but I would honestly be very careful doing so as you need to have a very keen awareness of their play range and your own hands strength/equity. Calling light or thin to an aggressive player can be +EV, but again, be highly selective on this type of action.

 

[Chicungulla]

The benefits of regular players It is better to be an aggressive player in front of the bubble in the final phase of tournaments since many players always tend to play a little safe

 

[okiepokerplayer]

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

The texture of the board drastically changed from the turn to the river on that board when the third straight card fell. So, as was stated, it makes it very hard for someone with Kx or Qx to call that raise. There are many times that I either check the turn or call a small value bet to "float" and see the river as it can completely change the board. You have to be careful playing this type of bluff against some OPs though, because you get a novice who isn't paying attention to anything but their pair, or a calling station who just won't fold then you're not going to be able to bluff them off. Know your OP well, test them often in smaller pots to know when you have a chance to bluff them off the bigger one.

 

[okiepokerplayer]

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

You're getting aggression confused with loose play. In the micro stakes players are much looser, and sometimes hyper aggressive. So you will be "blown off your hand" at times. But you need to learn to adjust to your opponents at those levels and make very fine grained decisions on when to play tight aggressive, or loose aggressive style of poker. Where in the tight aggressive style you're playing far less hands, and folding when the board is unfavorable. In the loose aggressive style, you're playing far more hands preflop, because, as we know, micro stakes grinders are not very good post flop, and your aggression lets them make mistakes.

 

[okiepokerplayer]

Aggression is a big key, today's play is so different, I play $1/2 at Foxwoods and $1/3 at Encore Boston. What I see today it is more a post flop play more than pre flop. Pre flop does give you some information of a players bet, but... I see many at times limp in with A's or K's making it a bit more difficult to judge their aggression. Then the funnel of hand ranges post flop can become more difficult to judge. If you as the player take the aggression the board still might dictate the other players.

Consider using a principle of a standard level of aggression pre flop. Make it a practice to only enter the pot with a raise or a 3 bet, depending on your position/hand strength. This will help to narrow the field of opponents on the flop, and allow you to in many cases continue your aggression there. If you are still encountering some significant resistance, then you can slow down on the turn and river when it's obvious your opponents are either playing strong hands, or have made hands. Also, by playing aggressively preflop and on the flop, you get much more information about the strength of your opponents hand, especially if they're still hanging around on the turn.