Integrity Check - How can an online poker room make you feel secure these days?

[CRStals]

There has been a lot of news around bots and cheating in online poker again. Does this make you question the integrity of the sites you that you choose to play? What can poker sites do to make you feel secure in playing there?

 

[rhoudini]

The first thing that comes to my mind is start demanding the use of cameras to record each player. However, the more I consider this idea, the more I see that it still does not guarantee security. Maybe the rooms could include those "I am not a robot" verifications from time to time, where we are forced to choose which pictures have some object or type some numbers in a strange image, I don't know. Again, it seems that could not avoid cheating entirely, but maybe could help to identify when people might be cheating.

 

[fundiver199]

Personally I think, the recent discussion about bots on ACR is much ado about nothing. Its a continuation of a discussion, which began all the way back in 2019, and to me it seems more like a conspiracy theory than anything else. The recent superuser scandal on GG Poker is more worrying. Using illegal software can never make anyone play better than perfect GTO. So if you are a good player yourself, there is a limit to, how much can lose to such opponents.

However having information about other players hole cards or as in the GG scandal your own equity before showdown with action still to come, is a whole different ballgame. As we saw in the POTRIPPER and Mike Postle cases, people with such information can have a massive winrate. So this is a real problem. But because GG Poker had such a security leak, does not mean, other sites have it as well. And hopefully GG Poker fixed their problem now.

What makes me feel the most safe is transparancy. Sites that allow the use of HUDs, show a players location (country) and allow independant tracking sites like sharkscope to do their job. This is the best protection against cheating, we can get as players. And of course playing on reputable sites with a good security team. For me PokerStars check all these boxes, so I would rate it as the safest site currently available.

 

[Tammy]

The first thing that comes to my mind is start demanding the use of cameras to record each player. However, the more I consider this idea, the more I see that it still does not guarantee security. Maybe the rooms could include those "I am not a robot" verifications from time to time, where we are forced to choose which pictures have some object or type some numbers in a strange image, I don't know. Again, it seems that could not avoid cheating entirely, but maybe could help to identify when people might be cheating.

Cameras to record the actual person playing? That seems like a big invasion of privacy that most people would not want to agree to.

 

[mattiebumpo]

If there was regulation and gaming commission oversight, I would feel more comfortable with online sites. For now, the only one I feel confident in is wsop.com. I am not willing to put very much money into other online poker sites since they are not legal in the US (except for WSOP.com in certain states). There are just too many ways to cheat and there have been so many scandals. I will play for real money on sites like WSOP.com when I am in Nevada, but I would still be leery of risking too much of my own money. I would play more satellites so I win my way to higher buy in tournaments rather than putting up the full buy in myself.

 

[rhoudini]

Cameras to record the actual person playing? That seems like a big invasion of privacy that most people would not want to agree to.

It certainly would not work for micro or low stakes, and maybe not necessary for tournaments at any stakes. But for the high stakes cash community (basically the most affected individually), I don't think it would be a problem (of course, by playing in tables with such feature they would be agreeing to expose their image as well as being exposed to others, playing under their real name). Basically, it would be a "live" cash game, like a brick-and-mortar casino. Charlie Carell was one big name that I've heard proposing this idea.

I don't think there's much to hide when playing poker: people who grind seriously usually will be playing alone in a room to avoid distractions. Unless they have someone besides them giving tips, maybe (actually one video showed a room with so many people working together as a team playing a lot of tables, and in many of them there were two people, a player and his "coach" giving live tips when they were playing. People usually will be there, sitting as in a live game. Of course, a discussion about physical tells would rise again, but this idea has a price to be paid for some if it really could avoid cheating.

But in fact, I don't really know if this is enough to avoid bots. People are probably too smart to bypass and fake webcams today. You could even run a bot while there faking to play, maybe.

 

[Tammy]

It certainly would not work for micro or low stakes, and maybe not necessary for tournaments at any stakes. But for the high stakes cash community (basically the most affected individually), I don't think it would be a problem (of course, by playing in tables with such feature they would be agreeing to expose their image as well as being exposed to others, playing under their real name). Basically, it would be a "live" cash game, like a brick-and-mortar casino. Charlie Carell was one big name that I've heard proposing this idea.

I don't think there's much to hide when playing poker: people who grind seriously usually will be playing alone in a room to avoid distractions. Unless they have someone besides them giving tips, maybe (actually one video showed a room with so many people working together as a team playing a lot of tables, and in many of them there were two people, a player and his "coach" giving live tips when they were playing. People usually will be there, sitting as in a live game. Of course, a discussion about physical tells would rise again, but this idea has a price to be paid for some if it really could avoid cheating.

But in fact, I don't really know if this is enough to avoid bots. People are probably too smart to bypass and fake webcams today. You could even run a bot while there faking to play, maybe.

That would be interesting to see for high stakes games. They might even be able to open a new revenue stream and charge people to watch!

 

[Dejana]

Cameras to record the actual person playing? That seems like a big invasion of privacy that most people would not want to agree to.

Sorry this is big off topic.

Imagine me in my pajamas, playing poker + eating raw oysters + v. waterfall (I have to hahah... :crying: )

ont.
"There has been a lot of news around bots and cheating in online poker again. Does this make you question the integrity of the sites you that you choose to play? What can poker sites do to make you feel secure in playing there?"


They could do a little more with the software itself, and choose better IT team if every now and then they have an "error"!

Checking each player individually, ID card verification is nothing, talk via Skype at least for 2 minutes, before verification...

Each of them should have better technical support ( who knows at least the basics of poker, ie what kind of place you work with and what kind of people need some kind of your help - poker players, not milkman) - my personal example with ACR, last few weeks they started to ignore my mails, because I can't log in via mobile App - "cool"

+ It doesn't matter which poker site you play on, never leave a lot of money on it...

 

[Tero]

My default brain settings towards online poker sites are adjusted to slightly paranoid and in that sense there is very little they can do to make this individual to feel safer.

The technological race between sites and scammers is ongoing, and there will always be someone who finds ways to exploit others. But I don't think that poker sites even care that much as long as any of these 'isolated incidents' do not rattle the larger userbase.

Looking in the mirror would be a good start. It never looks good when three different grassroot reps give totally different answers to the same question.

 

[YLAN]

Its not a new issue. Allegations of cheating has been around since the dawn of online poker that put the integrity of the sites in question... until now. There's a lot of different & new ways of cheating . What makes me feel secure is the regular updates from sites on their actions to mitigate the issues.

Poker is a gamble. Playing in the online sites is a gamble on their security & not sure how long we could be allowed to withdraw. All these risks are part of the game.

 

[SL-247]

There has been a lot of news around bots and cheating in online poker again. Does this make you question the integrity of the sites you that you choose to play? What can poker sites do to make you feel secure in playing there?

I try to play less on sites where there are a lot of bots and where the random number generator is not accurate.

 

[najisami]

As poker players, we've been dealing with this for a while now.

Questioning the integrity of the poker sites wouldn't be of any help. I'm sure they're doing the maximum they can to protect their reputation and certainly spending a lot of money on it. So what could I possibly ask them to do, not being an expert ?

The only two things I'm able to control are the amount of money I can risk depositing in any given site and deciding to quit or keep playing.

At the end, it's up to us to choose, It's a "Take it or leave it" situation.
Cheating is not a new thing, it will, and it has always been around even before AI. And nobody is twisting nobody's arm.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Checking each player individually, ID card verification is nothing, talk via Skype at least for 2 minutes, before verification...



The sites could do something like this during each time a player logs onto a site... AND random checks to make sure the player is actually the one playing.

It would be labor intensive by the sites but I think the more a site invests in security, the more players would flock to the site.

 

[jaymfc]

nothing they can do to make me feel secure playing for decent money. just impossible to stop.
playing for low stakes and keeping my bankroll trimmed regularly keeps me secure.

 

[dangbaonguyen93]

Cheating and bots at online Poker rooms. You're upset because you lost a confusing hand and you're out. But if you play correctly, if you can raise or quit, it's not a big problem. Poker, in my opinion, is a long-term investment game.

 

[okeedokalee]

Where there is money somebody will be trying to scam it. Human nature, stop one instance and another will pop up.

 

[WhiskeyFix]

One of the reasons why I enjoy playing Home Games or with people I know is that you can trust people to be genuine

It seems like every once in a while, there's always some sort of issue popping up, whether it's people colluding, ghosting, botting, etc.

Most Poker Rooms in 2024 should be able to detect bot activity based on factors like speed, betting patterns, log hours, consistency, etc.

A way to deter some people from botting would be to create different screens, animations, card sizes for different spots & levels of a tournament.
(Card size changes during bubble stage & bubble animation appears around table, what a crappy time for your bot/macro software to stop working )
Or, have the seats change so you're not always in the same one when you get to a new table.

 

[G0930]

I don't feel threatened or insecure by bot incidents. yes the occurences increase but the security of pokerrooms also increase steadily.

For example if someone like this German superuser at GG steals a bunch of money from other players I won't question the entire security system of the pokerroom and won't run around yelling "rigged poker!"
The players got re-imbursed , GG immediately updated their security and the hacker got caught and can expect some nice jailtime

 

[pentazepam]

This is probably not a popular view on a poker forum but as I have stated numerous times it's totally impossible to stop cheating online unless you put up cameras in everyone's homes AND play within a closed network.

Maybe an advanced AI that is more intelligent (and of course extremely faster than a human brain) can check for anomalies or perfect play very fast in theory.

But if you use more than one computer when you play you can have another beside you that gives advice in real-time (Real Time Assistant and Real Time Solvers). If you mix in a couple of human-like mistakes it's almost impossible to detect.

We also have collusion between human players and bots that can share hole cards and other information that can give an enormous edge - the more hole cards a game has the bigger the edge for the cheaters.

And regarding posters in this thread and at other sites that have the opinion that the bots are not playing perfectly (yet):

It's not important if the bots win against the best players (yet). What matters is that they win against the recreational players that keep the poker ecosystem alive by depositing money to poker sites.

You can't win much money if you sit around and play against regs all day.

So Live Cash games, even if they have always had cheaters in them as well, are the only way to still earn substantial money at poker.

You can still enjoy playing online if you play for fun and see it as a social game. Or use it as training to be better. Or just enjoy the intellectual challenge.

Levels under 10NL Cash and small stake MTTs are probably relatively safe for now. But bots have been detected at ALL stakes for over 15 years now. Even the lowest stakes as they are less investigated and policed by the players themselves. It is also a good training ground for testing bots.

So to answer the original question: Nothing that the sites do with the technology they have today can make me feel safe from cheaters.

And if someone thinks I exaggerating I want someone to try to make substantial money on 100NL cash or higher and see what happens.

For the ones that can play a lot of freerolls or nanostake for a little extra pocket money: great.

But don't be delusional and think you can work your way up to high stakes just by natural talent. A lot of players online work in teams and groups today, with a lot of technical assistance even at the lowest stakes.

In all areas of life: if money, power, or sex are involved - cheating and corruption will always be present.

 

[Dzill_230]

Hello everyone. Due to the recent scandals, this is a relevant issue. I agree with the opinions that there have been, are, and will be scammers trying to deceive, both through software and bots. But, as one movie character said, the level of crime is influenced not by the presence of criminal elements, but by the ability of the authorities to fight them. I believe that if a poker room openly displays information about security services, anti-cheating programs (not disclosing all the information, of course), this already serves as a trigger. Also, the number of complaints about blocked accounts undergoing checks for suspicious financial transactions involving participants deemed suspicious by the room's security service also indicates that work is being done. The latest news I read is that PokerStars is ready to equip cameras for video surveillance of tables at major tournaments to prevent fraud and errors by both players and dealers. Of course, no one can provide a hundred percent guarantee, but in my view, PokerStars and 888 are currently leaders in security matters.

 

[hardongear]

After being around 20+ years and knowing a decent amount of history of all the major sites for me it's track record and track record alone and I'd never make a deposit without looking into and investigating any new site very deeply. When dealing with anything money and online security, integrity and track record are very very very important to me and top my list of things to look for in a poker site. Being bribed by rewards and rake back to play at trashy, scummy sites with shitty track records doesn't work on me I'm NOT bribable for nickels and dimes like the vast majority seem to be.

So by playing and staying at micro/low stakes on Pokerstars I've been able to have 20+ years of great fun and have an enjoyable hobby with almost zero to no chance of having to worry about being cheated. I simply don't even think or worry about being cheated when I sit down at a Pokerstars tables.

Cheers!!!

 

[Luvepoker]

I honestly feel the poker sites are doing everything they can to make sure we are playing of safe sites. Do sometime bad things happen? Of course, but they are diligently working on catching these bad actors. I know several people and including myself who got random refunds from sites when that catch a player who is suspected of cheating.

As for bots, i do think people are going overboard on worrying about them. I'm not saying it imposable but again the sites are on the lookout for them. While I understand people and their concerns, I just don't see people setting up BOTS for the lower stakes. We have all see the posy and question on a possible BOTS but lets be honest, ate people with BOTS really looking to scam players on a $0.25 sit and go or tournament? I just dont think so but that is my opinion.

Cameras to record the actual person playing? That seems like a big invasion of privacy that most people would not want to agree to.

There have been a few sites that had the technology and option to do this. While I admit I would not want to be watched every moment of my game, if this is what was needed to make our game legal here, I would accept it. Just no more playing poker in my footie pajamas for me if this happened.

One option I could see working better is maybe a site does a random check every hour during the break. The site can skype random players and they would have to answer them using the video option and this way the site could verify who is playing and would actually show it's not a computer/ BOT. The question would be would people be happy with this option and more would the extra rake we would pay to cover the sites cost be OK with players.

 

[fundiver199]

This is probably not a popular view on a poker forum but as I have stated numerous times it's totally impossible to stop cheating online unless you put up cameras in everyone's homes AND play within a closed network.

Maybe an advanced AI that is more intelligent (and of course extremely faster than a human brain) can check for anomalies or perfect play very fast in theory.

But if you use more than one computer when you play you can have another beside you that gives advice in real-time (Real Time Assistant and Real Time Solvers). If you mix in a couple of human-like mistakes it's almost impossible to detect.

We also have collusion between human players and bots that can share hole cards and other information that can give an enormous edge - the more hole cards a game has the bigger the edge for the cheaters.

And regarding posters in this thread and at other sites that have the opinion that the bots are not playing perfectly (yet):

It's not important if the bots win against the best players (yet). What matters is that they win against the recreational players that keep the poker ecosystem alive by depositing money to poker sites.

You can't win much money if you sit around and play against regs all day.

So Live Cash games, even if they have always had cheaters in them as well, are the only way to still earn substantial money at poker.

You can still enjoy playing online if you play for fun and see it as a social game. Or use it as training to be better. Or just enjoy the intellectual challenge.

Levels under 10NL Cash and small stake MTTs are probably relatively safe for now. But bots have been detected at ALL stakes for over 15 years now. Even the lowest stakes as they are less investigated and policed by the players themselves. It is also a good training ground for testing bots.

So to answer the original question: Nothing that the sites do with the technology they have today can make me feel safe from cheaters.

And if someone thinks I exaggerating I want someone to try to make substantial money on 100NL cash or higher and see what happens.

For the ones that can play a lot of freerolls or nanostake for a little extra pocket money: great.

But don't be delusional and think you can work your way up to high stakes just by natural talent. A lot of players online work in teams and groups today, with a lot of technical assistance even at the lowest stakes.

In all areas of life: if money, power, or sex are involved - cheating and corruption will always be present.

I largely agree with most of this. If someone is thinking about giving up their job and become an online poker pro, then the best advice is dont. As we discussed in another thread, online SnGs are more or less capped at 10$ games these days, and cash games are going in the same direction. On smaller sites like 888 Poker you are lucky to find 2 tables of 50NL running these days, and even on PokerStars the high stakes lobby is a desert.

And its not just, because RTA or bots or whatever cant be stopped. Its also because, games like 6-max cash and 9-man SnGs are basically completely solved. There are literally programs called solvers, that can teach anyone the perfect unbeatable strategy for a 6-max cash game with 100BB stacks. And there are programs like ICMizer, that can teach anyone the perfect push-fold ranges for short stacked SnG play.

So even if regs are not cheating, they play so close to perfect, that you cant beat them, and recreational players lose their money so fast, that they either stop playing, move down to stakes, where its not to expensive to lose, or start studying and becoming regs themselfes. None of this is anything new, but the end result is, that games are drying up.

There are still people making significant money in online MTTs though. So other than live cash games, as you mention, this is likely the format, where at least some high stakes action will survive for the longest time. But even here cheating can not be completely prevented. If you reach the final table in a big MTT like Sunday Million, its quite likely, that one or more opponent are chatting with their coach (goasting) or have ICMizer running at a separate computer to make sure, they dont f... up any potential push-fold spots, that might come up.

 

[hobojim1247]

By having the rules and rulings of the game be uniformly and consistently enforced by dealers, floor people, and management. To many places let each floor person make rulings based on their personal opinion with no continuity or agreement between them.
Hence when the shift changes so do the rules, one never knows from visit to visit what rules will apply for any given night.
Second point is to have no tolerance of bullying and misogyny. Period.

 

[Ron112355]

There are a lot of sketchy unregulated sites that I wouldn't trust and wouldn't even think about making a deposit to.
As for the sites that are regulated and above board and do have a vested interest in protecting their player pool I trust that they will do their utmost to identify cheaters and bots.