baudib1 said:
I disagree. Both his line and ours look insanely strong and I doubt BB is shoving light at all. If we assume he's not shoving too much we DO have odds to set mine. It's 8:1, do the math we're getting odds
baudib1 said:
Really. Then why did you title your thread "I want to fold KK pre"? All BB did was 3-bet, that's nowhere near enough evidence to put him on aces. The CO however limped and then MIN 4-bet which against donks is a HUGE sign of strength. He has what he thinks is the nuts. Lucky for you you found a stupid enough player to think his JJ was the nuts. Most of the time this is aces from the CO though. Whether you can fold depends on how big that stupid factor really is at those limits, I haven't played any 50nl rush at all so I don't know the player pool. I just know generally against donks a limp then a min 4-bet is typically the stone nuts almost all the time.
"Set mining" inherently implies that we are folding KK when OOP on a low board when we miss our set. Folding KK on a low board in a 4-bet, multiway pot is about as -EV as anything I can think of other than folding AA preflop when 4 people go all-in
without making this personal to people...this sums up fully y "set mining" with kings is completely wrong and -ev..being honest, i never heard of that term being used with kk before this
without making this personal to people...this sums up fully y "set mining" with kings is completely wrong and -ev..being honest, i never heard of that term being used with kk before this
...also....based on heros prespective..i could be totally wrong with my math..if i am correct me...i am counting 24 dollars in the pot...its costing 11 dollars to call cut off's raise (and not assuming bb doesnt ship it to 20 which i would expect)... there is absolutely no odds here to set mine..,,and if hero calls this, BB imo will push cause its only 12 left in his stack and he aint letting his 8 go...so if as i see hero calls the addition raise...about 60 in pot pre flop...cut off is betting and betting big post flop...thats my analysis of it anywhos...again if my math is wrong i apologise, i just flicked at the numbers..
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luckforsome said:
Read my post. People are considering folding KK preflop. Before you fold KK preflop you should set mine. Yes if you think his range is exactly AA you should fold on a low board postflop. If you don't think his range is exactly AA you should just shove or flat and stack most flops.
luckforsome said:
You're missing implied odds 😉
Assuming the implied odds before the flop is usually a mistake imo - it'd make it correct to setmine any pocket pair in any 4bet pot. That's why most recommendations for setmining want you deepstacked and getting 12:1 to 15:1.
Once the action gets back to BB, it's going to be at least $20 pf for each player if not all in (I think once BB shoves, CO will also be able to shove?), so we're going to be putting in around $17.50 to win at most about $112, around 6.4:1.
Unless we have a read that BB won't shove? In which case we're putting in $11 to win the same $112 (assuming they both call our all in, which I doubt), still less than 12:1, but better than 8:1.
I agree w you that folding is horrid - but because I doubt CO (the bigger stack) has us beat, so I want as much in the pot pf as possible.
Once the action gets back to BB, it's going to be at least $20 pf for each player if not all in (I think once BB shoves, CO will also be able to shove?), so we're going to be putting in around $17.50 to win at most about $112, around 6.4:1.
Unless we have a read that BB won't shove? In which case we're putting in $11 to win the same $112 (assuming they both call our all in, which I doubt), still less than 12:1, but better than 8:1.
I agree w you that folding is horrid - but because I doubt CO (the bigger stack) has us beat, so I want as much in the pot pf as possible.
bubonicplay said:
If I thought his range was exactly AA you should fold preflop, we don't have anything remotely near set-mining odds, which is basically always the case in 4-bet pots, and this is almost assuredly going to be a 5-bet pot one way or another. Frankly we rarely have odds in 3-bet pots to set mine, which is why we 3-bet and 4-bet with big hands to begin with.
I wanted to fold briefly because it did cross my mind that he had AA but it seemed too stupid for him to limp AA on the CO. Late position raisers get no respect anyway, so need for him to sandbag -- typical CO raising range is probably like 25% or more for most people.
This is rush poker, with no stats and no history, so our default should be to never fold KK preflop -- you need a sick read to do that. And, as mentioned, I definitely felt that BB's range was a lot stronger than CO's -- he's a shortstack who put almost half his stack in. CO could be 4-betting a lot of stupid stuff like AQ/AK, trying to represent AA, trying to get it HU with the BB in a race situation.
The point,then, basically, was trying to figure out how to get the most money from CO -- sorry if the title is misleading.
bubonicplay said:
Wait.. so, you're saying.. if you absolutely KNOW that your opponent has the best hand in the game, pre flop... then folding is wrong?
Dude, we should play sometime! I'll let you know when I have Aces, and you can call my all-in.
Even if you know he is going to auto-stack if you hit your trips, you still don't have the odds to set mine here. You'll have already committed $20 preflop for a chance at winning $68 more. Calling is fine, but you aren't just going set/muck. For the record I would shove getting ready to bitch if he has AA =).
thepokerkid123 said:
How do you come up with the notion that villain will figure HERO for not much strength???? This is RUSH poker so do ya figure that Villain will figure HERO is hanging around on a RUSH table so he can raise up SC's out of pos.? I highly doubt it.
Mortis said:
If you're serious about playing we can play HU, pm me if you're serious.
But in response you're serious that if SB minraises and you have 33 and know he has aces and you are 200bb deep you are folding? I'll say the same thing to you, dude we should play sometime!
TheWall said:
It's $11 to call, we win more than $88 when we hit our set.
Poker Orifice said:
We isolated a fish, how is that super strength? I'm never quick folding SCs because I'm raising them all when folded to me. And when there are limpers all I see is free money.
It's $11 to call, we win more than $88 when we hit our set.
yah, you keep saying this, but it's not. the BB is going all-in for sure. even if it's only $11, we still don't have set mining odds. The real problem is you want to turn KK into 22 (I think JJ is an easy fold in this spot, you can start thinking about folding QQ MAYBE). We are totally committed to the hand here, arguably even if we 4-bet, he calls and an A flops.
I haven't read many of the responses, and I've never played Rush poker, but I have to ask:
Aren't you playing against unknowns? As in, you don't really know their styles, what their ranges are, etc.? In that case, the question in the OP seems to be:
"Should I fold KK preflop 3way versus two unknowns 150bb deep?"
Aren't you playing against unknowns? As in, you don't really know their styles, what their ranges are, etc.? In that case, the question in the OP seems to be:
"Should I fold KK preflop 3way versus two unknowns 150bb deep?"