How to play trashy hands from cutoff and button

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ArcaneHuman

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One of the things that helped my win rate recently was the fact that i stopped playing trashy hands. But as i study more and more it seems that we should actually be playing rather loose from the cutoff and button. I'm currently reading Mastering Small Stakes by Jonathan Little and i recently finished Modern Small Stakes by Nathan Williams. They both give ranges for opening a pot (first to raise). For open raising on the button these authors have included hands such as Q4s J8o J7s. I don't see how this can be a winning play, but at the same time the authors probably know what they're talking about? Given that EP and MP's range mostly has such hands crushed, and the fact that we'll miss the flop so often it just seems like the best way to set money on fire.

i've heard things like "you should generally only play 30 percent of the hands you're dealt". That seems incompatible with the idea that our range should be super wide whenever we're In Position.
 
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Hi ArcaneHuman.

I agree with you. This is my opinion based on my experience. I don't think it's profitable to play these hands. But keep in mind that I play micro stakes where players are willing to call almost anything with any hand.
 
ArcaneHuman said:
One of the things that helped my win rate recently was the fact that i stopped playing trashy hands. But as i study more and more it seems that we should actually be playing rather loose from the cutoff and button. I'm currently reading Mastering Small Stakes by Jonathan Little and i recently finished Modern Small Stakes by Nathan Williams. They both give ranges for opening a pot (first to raise). For open raising on the button these authors have included hands such as Q4s J8o J7s. I don't see how this can be a winning play, but at the same time the authors probably know what they're talking about? Given that EP and MP's range mostly has such hands crushed, and the fact that we'll miss the flop so often it just seems like the best way to set money on fire.

i've heard things like "you should generally only play 30 percent of the hands you're dealt". That seems incompatible with the idea that our range should be super wide whenever we're In Position.
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You missunderstood something. The authors talk about opening the hands mentioned when the action folds to them on the button. Ep's and mp's range does not matter since they already folded their hands

Its perfectly fine to open the hands mentioned if u are on the button and action folds to u. Especially if weak/weaktight opponents are in the blinds.
 
In fact, I barely tried to learn how to play cash games well, all the time either I lose with top cards, or bad ones, or I have a good day and I win with any
 
Don't play those hands with action in front of you. Like you said, EP and MP's ranges are stronger, you are making a losing play. But if it folds to you, you can steal the blinds with such hands. That makes it profitable as long as the blinds tend to fold a lot. And if they call, you still got a semi playable hand.
 
I play those hands loosely because it's more likely than not opponent has even weaker hands.
 
You want to be stealing from the button a lot, and if called you can still play in position. Position is especially important on wet, drawy boards and if you don't end up with one of those boards you probably fold hands like Q4s and J8s quickly anyway.

If called, you're not necessarily behind, but Q4s and J7s are both at the far edge of a good BTN open range and they really rely on turning strong draws or two pair or better. I think a solver would say fold them on the flop to a small lead bet from the BB unless we have backdoor draws or better and to a big bet even if we did a lot of the time.

Do the authors mentioned really recommend opening with J8o from the BTN? If the flop doesn't include both a T and a 9 or both a J and an 8 you're really playing a weak hand.
 
Tomalak said:
You want to be stealing from the button a lot, and if called you can still play in position. Position is especially important on wet, drawy boards and if you don't end up with one of those boards you probably fold hands like Q4s and J8s quickly anyway.

If called, you're not necessarily behind, but Q4s and J7s are both at the far edge of a good BTN open range and they really rely on turning strong draws or two pair or better. I think a solver would say fold them on the flop to a small lead bet from the BB unless we have backdoor draws or better and to a big bet even if we did a lot of the time.

Do the authors mentioned really recommend opening with J8o from the BTN? If the flop doesn't include both a T and a 9 or both a J and an 8 you're really playing a weak hand.
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Yeah they do, and they are right depending who are in the blinds. If you have someone who overfolds and doesn't defend their blinds unless they have a big hand, just open these hands to steal their blinds. If you manage to steal 2 out of 3 orbits from the button, you are already breaking even assuming you raise to 3BB and lose the hand if they call. And sometimes you will be ahead postflop, making this already profitable here. I sometimes raise even worse hands if blinds fold constantly, even if they call, you know they have a stronger holding but you are polarizing their range leading to interesting post flop situations for you from time to time.

If someone defends actively, 3-bets alot from the blinds etc. Then you should only raise a stronger range obviously to be able to call down a 3-bet.
 
Ace of Spad3s said:
If someone defends actively, 3-bets alot from the blinds etc. Then you should only raise a stronger range obviously to be able to call down a 3-bet.
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Or 4-bet.
 
4-bet with Q7o or T8o or something against a 3-bet from the blinds? Your steal failed, I don't think that would be a +EV decision in the micro's?
 
Ace of Spad3s said:
4-bet with Q7o or T8o or something against a 3-bet from the blinds? Your steal failed, I don't think that would be a +EV decision in the micro's?
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I think he means in general not with those specific hands. These trashy hands are bottom of range so get folded.

Alot of the value in raising these hands is that alot of the time you pick up the blinds for free and then if you just get called you still might win either through making a hand or cbetting and getting a fold.
 
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That stuff is too advanced for the people you're going to try and use it on.
GL.
 
I will raise with trash from cutoff/button first in if I have observed the bb folding to those kind of raises before.
 
ArcaneHuman said:
One of the things that helped my win rate recently was the fact that i stopped playing trashy hands. But as i study more and more it seems that we should actually be playing rather loose from the cutoff and button. I'm currently reading Mastering Small Stakes by Jonathan Little and i recently finished Modern Small Stakes by Nathan Williams. They both give ranges for opening a pot (first to raise). For open raising on the button these authors have included hands such as Q4s J8o J7s. I don't see how this can be a winning play, but at the same time the authors probably know what they're talking about? Given that EP and MP's range mostly has such hands crushed, and the fact that we'll miss the flop so often it just seems like the best way to set money on fire.

i've heard things like "you should generally only play 30 percent of the hands you're dealt". That seems incompatible with the idea that our range should be super wide whenever we're In Position.
Click to expand...
The fact is that at micro-mid stakes players are unbalanced: they call more than they should and they fold more than they should. Both cases are good for increasing the range of CO and BU to something between 45-55% at maximum, IMO, and still be profitable. It all depends on the players sitting ahead and their overall tendencies: if we are in CO we shouldn't be opening so wide, I think that 30% is a pretty good amount of range for any table situation.
From the BU our equity will realize most of times and we have only two players to speak ahead. We know for statistics and experience and for millions of HUD hands played for professionals that players in the SB are folding at least 70% of times, some are folding 90% of the SB, some are only 3-betting for the SB, so realistically we have only the Big Blind player to speak.
Considering this fact, we also have information that even the most wild and insane players aren't 3-betting more than 30% of times versus BU openings so it becomes automatically profitable to open a wider range from BU.
As a rule of thumb always consider the players who are sitting ahead and what are their tendencies. There are times that it's definitely not profitable to open many hands from BU, so we must ask our common sense before taking any decision based on charts or big time shots poker player, respectable of course, such as Jonathan Little, Nathan Williams or anyone else.
Personally I use many different ranges depending on the table general profile: if the table is easy I open more hands, even from UTG, if the table is medium I reduce my range a bit and if the table is hard I become the so called general NIT, playing only premium hands from UTG and opening only hands with huge playability postflop even from BU, in other words, I will only open hands that can call a 3-bet or even 4-bet (bluff).

Now I would recommend you to watch this beautiful lecture of this very sincere and awesome former poker player which is Liv Boeree. Pay close attention to everything she says, it's very insightful.


Best regards;
 
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Did anyone mention that by playing more hands from BU & CO vs. blinds we will be playing in position? Guess what... that's a HUGE advantage.
 
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Position is king. I believe they assume that opponents will fold when they miss. Or that they will float against two bets but fold on the river to a sizeable third barrel. That is for the most part untrue in my experience.

When I am on the btn and co opens frequently i like to threebet him loose and then adjust depending on how he reacts. On the blinds i do try to threebet steal freq btn openers too, but without position if he calls, im more likely to pick my spots in this situation.
 
Poker Orifice said:
playing in position
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I personally don't pay much attention to the position, But when I don't have it, I feel the lack of it.
 
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