Micro FR Study Group

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tight, tight is right looking for nits right?

A few random's thrown in to keep them off the scent.

High aggression going over the top raising x3 to catch out limping attacks with slow played good hands, so if called you are good to go on the flop yet if you get re-raised all in there lies another decision, so presumably this tactic works only for the top 3 pair.

would do you think?

presumably attacking the blinds when no callers and first in, what happens if you get re=raised with crap?

I looked at my winnings chart and most come from the fact there was know showdown, does this sound good or just lucky loose play?

any thoughts please get back to me.🙂
 
thesaintuk said:
tight, tight is right looking for nits right? what?

A few random's thrown in to keep them off the scent. if your talking about nits then you should widen your range and exploit their tendency to fold

High aggression going over the top raising x3 to catch out limping attacks with slow played good hands, so if called you are good to go on the flop yet if you get re-raised all in there lies another decision, so presumably this tactic works only for the top 3 pair. what?

would do you think? honestly idk what to think right now

presumably attacking the blinds when no callers and first in, what happens if you get re=raised with crap? fold

I looked at my winnings chart and most come from the fact there was know showdown, does this sound good or just lucky loose play?

any thoughts please get back to me.🙂
Click to expand...

in bold. sorry but i didn't understand some of the questions
 
Lofwyr said:
Guess I should have clarified - the villain would be relatively unknown. I'm trying to determine a baseline for 3betting at 10NL so to speak. I've found 3bets coming from players with <5 hands in more than one session now and don't really know how wide to guesstimate their range.
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baseline for 3betting @ 2nl/5nl/10nl: QQ+/AK. Some a little wider, some a little looser but even 3betting JJ is not 'standard', at least not in Full Ring.
 
thesaintuk said:
tight, tight is right looking for nits right?

A few random's thrown in to keep them off the scent.

High aggression going over the top raising x3 to catch out limping attacks with slow played good hands, so if called you are good to go on the flop yet if you get re-raised all in there lies another decision, so presumably this tactic works only for the top 3 pair.

would do you think?

presumably attacking the blinds when no callers and first in, what happens if you get re=raised with crap?

I looked at my winnings chart and most come from the fact there was know showdown, does this sound good or just lucky loose play?

any thoughts please get back to me.🙂
Click to expand...


Did you just read the poker lingo thread and try to make some sentences out of all the words?
 
Any way were the f* are we on the 4betting size?Should we 3x the 3bet are just freaking shove vs the villain 20\17\4 what about the loose passive player normal at my stakes 45\5-8\1 ,and the complete uber agg fish 80\70\inf?
 
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JOEBOB69 said:
Any way were the f* are we on the 4betting size?Should we 3x the 3bet are just freaking shove vs the villain 20\17\4 what about the loose passive player normal at my stakes 45\5-8\1 ,and the complete uber agg fish 80\70\inf?
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to me I prefer the shove as I don't have to be put in a tricky spot of having to stack off vs a 5bet/ shove or folding after putting 4 bets in. In 350k hands I can say with authority that when someone 5bet/shoves they have AA about 10 times for every time they have KK/QQ/ AK.

But if you can fold after putting 33-34bb into a pot then I guess the smaller 4bet size is fine. I suppose you could say 4bet the smaller amount with just AA if you thought villains weren't observant enough to notice.

Of course if you always make a 4bet a shove it makes 4betting QQ/AK -EV as you never get called by worse so when villain folds you win, say 18bb but when you get called you're probably looking at risking 96bb for a 104bb pot with ~ 39% equity for QQ and ~ 33% with AK ( not including the split pots), so if villain 3bets JJ+/AK and folds only JJ to a shove then for QQ you win 18bb 17% of the time for 3bb and when you get called and win you make 40bb and when get called and lose it is 57bb so overall you lose ~ 14bb when you shove QQ and a little worse with AK.

I think this is why playing QQ & AK in 3bet pots at micros is so painful. As soon as you get 3bet your hand becomes unprofitable. So if you have invested 4bb in a pot and get 3bet you likely have 47% equity in a hand and since the part of that range that you beat has a high likelihood of folding there is not enough dead money to make 4betting profitable with these. This is the disadvantage of playing OOP and the answer IMO is not to get pissed and feel exploited and start shoving QQ (like I did twice yesterday, running into AA both times) but to be more aggro yourself when you have position. (Like I need to be).


So in summary, without a specific read on villain, when I am playing my A game and not my C-/tilt monkey/ spew game I shove AA & KK over a 3bet and fold everything else.

I know not everyone believes me but 3betting/ 4betting/ 5betting is pretty rare at full Ring Micros. Aside from the occasional aggrotard who is a 3bet monkey most players have a very narrow range for 3betting and it is almost always a value range and almost never as a bluff.
 
fx20736 said:
to me I prefer the shove as I don't have to be put in a tricky spot of having to stack off vs a 5bet/ shove or folding after putting 4 bets in. In 350k hands I can say with authority that when someone 5bet/shoves they have AA about 10 times for every time they have KK/QQ/ AK.

But if you can fold after putting 33-34bb into a pot then I guess the smaller 4bet size is fine. I suppose you could say 4bet the smaller amount with just AA if you thought villains weren't observant enough to notice.

Of course if you always make a 4bet a shove it makes 4betting QQ/AK -EV as you never get called by worse so when villain folds you win, say 18bb but when you get called you're probably looking at risking 96bb for a 104bb pot with ~ 39% equity for QQ and ~ 33% with AK ( not including the split pots), so if villain 3bets JJ+/AK and folds only JJ to a shove then for QQ you win 18bb 17% of the time for 3bb and when you get called and win you make 40bb and when get called and lose it is 57bb so overall you lose ~ 14bb when you shove QQ and a little worse with AK.

I think this is why playing QQ & AK in 3bet pots at micros is so painful. As soon as you get 3bet your hand becomes unprofitable. So if you have invested 4bb in a pot and get 3bet you likely have 47% equity in a hand and since the part of that range that you beat has a high likelihood of folding there is not enough dead money to make 4betting profitable with these. This is the disadvantage of playing OOP and the answer IMO is not to get pissed and feel exploited and start shoving QQ (like I did twice yesterday, running into AA both times) but to be more aggro yourself when you have position. (Like I need to be).


So in summary, without a specific read on villain, when I am playing my A game and not my C-/tilt monkey/ spew game I shove AA & KK over a 3bet and fold everything else.

I know not everyone believes me but 3betting/ 4betting/ 5betting is pretty rare at full Ring Micros. Aside from the occasional aggrotard who is a 3bet monkey most players have a very narrow range for 3betting and it is almost always a value range and almost never as a bluff.
Click to expand...

If you 4bet that big you usually shouldn't fold. In general 4bets should either be shoves or very small, just a bit more than a min raise really. So If you open to 4bb, get 3bet to 12bb, you 4bet to 24bb. This does a couple things. If you are bluffing and get shoved on you can still fold. If you're value betting it can make you're opponent think he has fold equity and make him shove. If you're called the pot will be roughly 50bb and you'll have 75bb which means that if you shove it's not a huge overbet.
 
The thing FX when you 4bet shoved you seem to think villains only call with AA this not true at these levels we play.This hand was like 10 min ago.

Full Tilt Poker $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1245171
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $11.46
Hero (MP): $10.89
CO: $8.33
BTN: $9.85
SB: $9.58
BB: $8.96

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with Q :club: Q :diamond:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $1.20, 1 fold, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10.89, 1 fold, SB calls $8.38 all in

Flop: ($20.46) 3 :heart: 3 :diamond: 7 :club: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($20.46) 8 :diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($20.46) 2 :heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $20.46
Hero shows Q :club: Q :diamond:
SB shows T :diamond: T :club:
Hero wins $17.79
(Rake: $1.36)

Yeah WV i see your point about min 4betting for vaule\light.Because if i 3bet for vaule an get min raised i need AKs KK,AA or a sould read to continue it looks so strong.
 
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WVHillbilly said:
If you 4bet that big you usually shouldn't fold. In general 4bets should either be shoves or very small, just a bit more than a min raise really. So If you open to 4bb, get 3bet to 12bb, you 4bet to 24bb. This does a couple things. If you are bluffing and get shoved on you can still fold. If you're value betting it can make you're opponent think he has fold equity and make him shove. If you're called the pot will be roughly 50bb and you'll have 75bb which means that if you shove it's not a huge overbet.
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very good, I was meditating upon the min 4bet for value so i 'm glad I'm not too far off on the small or shove thought.

JOEBOB69 said:
The thing FX when you 4bet shoved you seem to think villains only call with AA this not true at these levels we play.This hand was like 10 min ago.

Full Tilt Poker $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1245171
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $11.46
Hero (MP): $10.89
CO: $8.33
BTN: $9.85
SB: $9.58
BB: $8.96

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with Q ♣ Q ♦
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $1.20, 1 fold, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10.89, 1 fold, SB calls $8.38 all in

Flop: ($20.46) 3 ♥ 3 ♦ 7 ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($20.46) 8 ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($20.46) 2 ♥ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $20.46
Hero shows Q ♣ Q ♦
SB shows T ♦ T ♣
Hero wins $17.79
(Rake: $1.36)

Yeah WV i see your point about min 4betting for vaule\light.Because if i 3bet for vaule an get min raised i need AKs KK,AA or a sould read to continue it looks so strong.
Click to expand...

I didn't say villains don't show up with less, it just doesn't happen often enough to make it profitable. Go and check PT3, run a filter for when you faced a 3 bet and raised all-in and villain called then look at the number of times for each hand that called starting with AA.
 
Pretty sure I murdered a hand in which I 4bet this lunchtime.

I have AKs on the BTN, i open 4x, SB 3bets to $1.50, i think he's FOS and 4bet to $4, he flats it and then donks $6 odd into a $8 pot on a 775 flop, I have like 7.20 left and just shove over the top b/c its a paired board and SPR's 1 so never really knew what to do, coulda saved myself $7 there as he had JJ 🙁

IMO w/ hindsight, Should have either flatted behind or plain shoved over the top of his 3bet, but then I may lose value from JJ which appaz CC's large 4bets......A or a K one time!! This was against the very same villain who flatted ATo in the SB vs another hero open and got it in on a T94 flop vs my KK, obv binks a T on the river.
 
fx20736 said:
very good, I was meditating upon the min 4bet for value so i 'm glad I'm not too far off on the small or shove thought.



I didn't say villains don't show up with less, it just doesn't happen often enough to make it profitable. Go and check PT3, run a filter for when you faced a 3 bet and raised all-in and villain called then look at the number of times for each hand that called starting with AA.
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Look up how i can do this with HEM and i will when i wake up this evening got to go to bed now i'll try this when i wake up.l
 
orangepeeleo said:
Pretty sure I murdered a hand in which I 4bet this lunchtime.

I have AKs on the BTN, i open 4x, SB 3bets to $1.50, i think he's FOS and 4bet to $4, he flats it and then donks $6 odd into a $8 pot on a 775 flop, I have like 7.20 left and just shove over the top b/c its a paired board and SPR's 1 so never really knew what to do, coulda saved myself $7 there as he had JJ 🙁

IMO w/ hindsight, Should have either flatted behind or plain shoved over the top of his 3bet, but then I may lose value from JJ which appaz CC's large 4bets......A or a K one time!! This was against the very same villain who flatted ATo in the SB vs another hero open and got it in on a T94 flop vs my KK, obv binks a T on the river.
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I read alot that it is ok to flat QQ/AK to a 3bet from the blinds because you have position, especially if you think Ax/ Kx hands make up a big part of his 3bet/ bluffing range. Then by flatting you play against a range that includes a lot of hands that you dominate. I tend to shove pp's TT+ here pretty often against looser opponents who will sometimes call here with AK/AQ thinking I'm the one who is FOS. I tend to be more loose/ aggro in the Button/ blinds and BvB than anywhere else. I seem to be able to get a lot of folds 3betting Button opens from the SB with a pretty wide range, often Axs, A8o+, K9s+ KTo+ and vs a SB steal when I am in the BB I will often 3bet much wider, sometimes with any A or K. Also, to just complete my thought I tend to 3bet CO opens a little looser than normal, often AJ+, KQ+, 77+ or similair.
 
fx20736 said:
very good, I was meditating upon the min 4bet for value so i 'm glad I'm not too far off on the small or shove thought.



I didn't say villains don't show up with less, it just doesn't happen often enough to make it profitable. Go and check PT3, run a filter for when you faced a 3 bet and raised all-in and villain called then look at the number of times for each hand that called starting with AA.
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Just ran this filter for this year villain had AA 21% of the time.And this is just when i get called after a 4bet shove.
 
Which people are discussing 6max vs. which people are talking FR? The stuff I discuss is mostly 6max in terms of what I'm seeing from villains and average tendencies.
 
JOEBOB69 said:
Just ran this filter for this year villain had AA 21% of the time.And this is just when i get called after a 4bet shove.
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Well at 5nl, I raised all in with QQ after being 3bet 19 times and lost 8 times for a total of -1.17BB/ Hand. Of the 8 times I lost, twice were to Kings, 3 times to AA, once to JJ, once to K2 and once to 77.

So 62.5% of the time when I shoved with QQ I ran into AA or KK.

and I am a loser with KK when 4bet/shoving. I did it 20 times. Lost 8 times for -7.01 BB/ hand. I ran into AA 5 times. So 25% of the time when I shoved with KK I ran into AA.

Am I just unluckier than most??


AK did better. I think AK probably does better in these situations because of card removal.

Anyone know of any good posts on card removal when shoving with AK vs KK??
 
Dear No Brainer,

Thankyou for your reply.

No i did n't. I was just trying to voice a question.my own, although i am not altogether familiar with every aspect of what people a saying i mostly understand and getting better at understanding.

Im sorry if my language was confusing, i thought it was pretty clear.
 
fx20736 said:
Well at 5nl, I raised all in with QQ after being 3bet 19 times and lost 8 times for a total of -1.17BB/ Hand. Of the 8 times I lost, twice were to Kings, 3 times to AA, once to JJ, once to K2 and once to 77.

So 62.5% of the time when I shoved with QQ I ran into AA or KK.

and I am a loser with KK when 4bet/shoving. I did it 20 times. Lost 8 times for -7.01 BB/ hand. I ran into AA 5 times. So 25% of the time when I shoved with KK I ran into AA.

Am I just unluckier than most??


AK did better. I think AK probably does better in these situations because of card removal.

Anyone know of any good posts on card removal when shoving with AK vs KK??
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My KK running into AA % was higher than yours.I guess card removal might play a little into this.Lets not get into the folding KK thing again though (not saying you were but sigh i have heard enough of that lately🙂 )
Edit:The ak vs kk the thing is when your in with KK you dominate QQ,JJ1010etc.So this should more than make up for it.
 
JOEBOB69 said:
My KK running into AA % was higher than yours.I guess card removal might play a little into this.Lets not get into the folding KK thing again though (not saying you were but sigh i have heard enough of that lately🙂 )
Edit:The ak vs kk the thing is when your in with KK you dominate QQ,JJ1010etc.So this should more than make up for it.
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Could be variance but sample size is ~ 90k hands but I am a money loser with KK when I 4bet/shove. 🙁
 
Re 3betting from the blinds against CO/BTN

Do you really think 3betting AJ,KQ, and AQ from the blinds against LP raise is profitable? Dont we just fold out worse and get better hands to continue? Isn't flatting better if we dominate a lot of their range?
 
Madmansam said:
Do you really think 3betting AJ,KQ, and AQ from the blinds against LP raise is profitable? Dont we just fold out worse and get better hands to continue? Isn't flatting better if we dominate a lot of their range?
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Should be entirely player dependent. If the guy is calling 3bets the majority of the time it's much better to 3bet those AJ-AK, fish will spew more $ with his dominated stuff pre and you get to take the initiative.

If the CO/BTN raiser isn't really calling 3bets then flatting the big stuff (AJ, AQ, KQ, etc.) is better for just the reason you said: keep in the dominated stuff. Also...defend by 3betting with junky type hands. If villain folds a lot and plays the 4bet game in a straightforward fashion it might be profitable to 3bet their steal with bottom 50%* every time.

Of course the only way to really find this stuff out is to test it. So 3betting someone's steal from the blinds early in a session is a pretty good idea. It gains info about how this villain is likely to react to your 3bets and should help you decide what range to be 3betting with.

*hyperbole, but you get the idea
 
Thats been basically my game plan. 3betting Axs and other weird stuff Kxs, J9s, and flatting the bigger hands like 77-QQ, and 3betting KK,AA, and AK.
 
Eh...I wasn't saying it's best to go one way or another. Totally villain dependent. If villain is like 40/25/40ats and folds to 80% of 3bets then you just go ahead and 3bet them with like...anything. Except the stuff you actually want action on, like KQ/AJ/etc. If you have the same villain but he only folds to 3bets 40% of the time them you go the other way. You 3bet your AT/AJ/AQ because villain will call you with dominated hands. You flat or muck the other stuff.

Keep in mind I'm assuming the villain is a fish. You don't really have to stress about being particularly exploitable if you're against a fish that will never properly exploit you.
 
should we be cbetting the majority of our range OOP or only the top of our range?
 
Fx, in the very specific situation where I'm against a full stacked player, I raise, he 3bets, I 4bet shove and he calls, they've turned up with the following this year. KQ,AK,AJ,QQ,KK,TT,KK.
 
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