Micro FR Study Group

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wrung24 said:
Not sure either what a normal stat is here but mine are :

WTSD: 29.8 which is higher than fx's (gulp)
W$SD: 48.1 (under 50, is that bad ?)
W$WSF: 42.2
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You play 6max so I really have no idea what the averages are for those stats. W$SD being under 50% is actually not an indicator that you're doing anything wrong. Pretty sure a normal range for that stat is like 48% - 52%.

I meant to say this earlier but forgot, my W$WSF is likely very high because I'm an aggrotard whose winnings come from people folding. Back in the days when I actually won $$s at SD that number for me was 43%. I'm guessing that's right around average.
 
In general at 6-max I end up with about 27%-30% WTSD and that generally translates to W$SD of exactly 50%. That's off the top of my head though. I'm also an aggortard.
 
Just checked my stats since moving upto 10nl this time, played 15k hands with a huge profit of $13 :/

Vpip - 14.5
Pfr - 12
CcPf - 3.9 is this too low??

W$WSF - 42
W$SD - 53
WTSD 24.5
3Bet PF - 4.5

Am i possibly doing an Fx and missing out on value also?

p.s. Sorry Fx looks like im no longer in the nit club 🙂
 
WVHillbilly said:
I meant to say this earlier but forgot, my W$WSF is likely very high because I'm an aggrotard whose winnings come from people folding. Back in the days when I actually won $$s at SD that number for me was 43%. I'm guessing that's right around average.
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Over the sample I have I'm winning more money without showdown than with (total about 14bb/100) so I'm not sure what to think.

It's just stats anyway though ...
 
wrung24 said:
It's just stats anyway though ...
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QFT.

If you win you win. It only matters if you know why you're winning, ie you think about your decisions and have a reason for making them.
 
6 max mine are
VIP 19%
PFR 16%
3BET4.5 %
WTSD 35%
W$SD 53%
W$WSF 48%
 
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WVHillbilly said:
Also that W$WSF seems really low. Just looked at my db and mine is 47% which makes no sense since you're starting with much better hands on average than me. I'm not sure what a "normal" range is for that stat but I'd guess yours is low and it's likely because you're folding too often.

So it's very likely that you're folding the best hand too often AND not value betting the river thin enough. Lots to work on as you learn how to play poker. 😉
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ok, so let's discuss these two scenarios. Really we only have tough choices against non-nits and non-maniacs as nits and maniacs are easy to play against. It is the players with VPIP's >12 but <25 that are harder to read and put on a range.


My answer will need to be in 2 posts due to work constraints.

Part 1

So let's go through as few examples:

I am in the CO with KQo. It is folded to me and I open for 4xbb. Flop comes down AQ3. Villain donk bets. Now does he have the A? Certainly there are alot of A's in his calling range, AK (maybe) AQ AJ AT (maybe) so I call. The turn is a blank, villain checks. I make a 1/2 pot bet thinking he may be on a draw or possibly an Ace with a crappy kicker or perhaps a worse Q than me and I don't want him to draw out for free or set up a river bluff and I want to narrow down his range. He calls. River is a J. If a villain shoves here correct move is to fold correct? There are way too many many hands that beat me but what if villain makes pot sized bet? Am I calling 40bb here with 2nd pair/ 2nd kicker on a scary, draw heavy board with lots of 2 pair/ straight possibilities against a villain who I cannot be certain would only bet on the river with the nuts nor bet with a worse hand than me?

Another: I am OTB and it is folded to me. I make a PSB with A7o. SB calls. Flop comes down A99. Villain checks, I bet, he re-raises. Do I let go here? Or what if he calls the bet and shoves on the turn? What if I check behind. Turn is a 5, villain checks. Do I bet here? what if he calls and river is now a T and villain makes a PSB?

Another: I am in the SB to the right of a super loose villain OTB. He open raises. I have KdJd. This is way ahead of most of his range so I call because if I 3bet he probably doesn't call with worse. Flop comes down Tc6s3c. Do I donk this flop since he probably didn't hit it? If I check and he bets do I fold?

Or I am in the Hijack with AhTh. Villain to my right who is 17/12 type player opens. I don't want to 3bet here so I call. Flop comes down JhTc5d. Villlain c-bets. Ok so I have middle pair and some backdoor draws so I call. turn is 9h giving me 4 flush. Villain fires out a PSB. I now have a flush draw, middle pair and an overcard. Do I call? Do I re-raise? If I call and the river is 5c and villain checks, do I try to bluff here thinking he may be on a busted draw like me?

More to come but got to get on a conference call. please provide input as these scenarios always kill me.
 
fx20736 said:
ok, so let's discuss these two scenarios. Really we only have tough choices against non-nits and non-maniacs as nits and maniacs are easy to play against. It is the players with VPIP's >12 but <25 that are harder to read and put on a range.


My answer will need to be in 2 posts due to work constraints.

Part 1

So let's go through as few examples:

I am in the CO with KQo. It is folded to me and I open for 4xbb. Flop comes down AQ3. Villain donk bets. Now does he have the A? Certainly there are alot of A's in his calling range, AK (maybe) AQ AJ AT (maybe) so I call. The turn is a blank, villain checks. I make a 1/2 pot bet thinking he may be on a draw or possibly an Ace with a crappy kicker or perhaps a worse Q than me and I don't want him to draw out for free or set up a river bluff and I want to narrow down his range. He calls. River is a J. If a villain shoves here correct move is to fold correct? There are way too many many hands that beat me but what if villain makes pot sized bet? Am I calling 40bb here with 2nd pair/ 2nd kicker on a scary, draw heavy board with lots of 2 pair/ straight possibilities against a villain who I cannot be certain would only bet on the river with the nuts nor bet with a worse hand than me?

Another: I am OTB and it is folded to me. I make a PSB with A7o. SB calls. Flop comes down A99. Villain checks, I bet, he re-raises. Do I let go here? Or what if he calls the bet and shoves on the turn? What if I check behind. Turn is a 5, villain checks. Do I bet here? what if he calls and river is now a T and villain makes a PSB?

I probs fold to a c/r there, for later streets it depends what comes down and how wet the board is, but after betting there and being called on a dry flop I dont think i'd be going for value with A7!

Another: I am in the SB to the right (left??) of a super loose villain OTB. He open raises. I have KdJd. This is way ahead of most of his range so I call because if I 3bet he probably doesn't call with worse. Flop comes down Tc6s3c. Do I donk this flop since he probably didn't hit it? If I check and he bets do I fold?

I fold this pre, we're on his left and this is the only time in an orbit that we are going to be oop to him, just fold, we have 5 hands an orbit where we have position.

Or I am in the Hijack with AhTh. Villain to my right who is 17/12 type player opens. I don't want to 3bet here so I call. Flop comes down JhTc5d. Villlain c-bets. Ok so I have middle pair and some backdoor draws so I call. turn is 9h giving me 4 flush. Villain fires out a PSB. I now have a flush draw, middle pair and an overcard. Do I call? Do I re-raise? If I call and the river is 5c and villain checks, do I try to bluff here thinking he may be on a busted draw like me?

I probs fold this too (sounding like a nit here lol) I don't think a 17/12 bet bet's with anything you beat here, like slowplayed overpair, Jx (where x is bigger than a T) I dont think your ace is a clean out so your basically drawing to a fd and its basic pot odds???

More to come but got to get on a conference call. please provide input as these scenarios always kill me.
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Reply in bold

EDIT: My answers sound nitty :/
 
Check back turn in hand 1 the reasons you give for betting make no sense.

Hand 2 depends on SB but I like calling. Bet turn if check to.

Hand 3 ch/f

Hand 4 fold preflop. ATs isn't that strong against a 17/12s MP1 opening range.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Check back turn in hand 1 the reasons you give for betting make no sense.

Hand 2 depends on SB but I like calling. Bet turn if check to.

Hand 3 ch/f

Hand 4 fold preflop. ATs isn't that strong against a 17/12s MP1 opening range.
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Ok none of this advice addresses the River where I am looking for help.

Value betting more often on the River isn't too hard a concept. I can stop worrying so much about check raises and just start betting more. It's not that I don't do it, I just will do it more often.

It is calling raises on scary boards or calling raises with 2nd pair or top pair/weak kicker or bottom 2 pair, etc. that make me most nervous. When a villain with position checks behind on the flop or turn and bets big on a river that bricks that often is a bluff correct? How often are you calling River shoves with top pair? How often are you calling river shoves with Top 2 pair on a dripping wet board? Say you have AsKc and the board is AhKhQcJs5h and villain shoves on a straight and a flush board?

I have figured out that call limp/call preflop then check/call on the flop and turn and shove on the River means a set but there are so many other scary river scenarios to deal with. Sometimes I wince, close my eyes and make a crying call and when I win I am just flabbergasted that anyone would take betting lines on a coordinated board with a single pair.
 
You're focusing on all the wrong spots.

Here is where you need to bet more often.

You're OTB with AJ and get called by an unknown BB.

Flop is AQ3r. He checks, you bet 2/3 pot and he calls.
Turn is 8. He checks, you bet 2/3 pot again and he calls.
River is T. He checks and you???

The answer should be bet but right now you're usually checking behind because you're afraid of being beaten or you don't want to get check/raised off a hand that has SD value.

This is the type of hand where you're losing value. When bad players RAISE your bets, yes your TP type hands aren't generally in great shape but it's the times they're calling that you need to focus on to maximize value.
 
WVHillbilly said:
You're focusing on all the wrong spots.

Here is where you need to bet more often.

You're OTB with AJ and get called by an unknown BB.

Flop is AQ3r. He checks, you bet 2/3 pot and he calls.
Turn is 8. He checks, you bet 2/3 pot again and he calls.
River is T. He checks and you???

The answer should be bet but right now you're usually checking behind because you're afraid of being beaten or you don't want to get check/raised off a hand that has SD value.

This is the type of hand where you're losing value. When bad players RAISE your bets, yes your TP type hands aren't generally in great shape but it's the times they're calling that you need to focus on to maximize value.
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That is a perfect example of the kind of hands I check behind on. I cannot believe how often villain shows up with A7 here. On occasion though villain has AK/AQ and I feel stupid for value towning for him.
 
So we can fold to all of your river bets as they are TPTK+

so the only question remaining is can we shove 100% of rivers you dont bet... you dont have TPTK+ but will you fold AJ? so we shove 55 here.. and see what you do. We get a note saying "villian wont bet TPTK but willl call with TPGK" you get a note saying "villian is a manic bluffer" but our note should yeild us more money than yours as we arent a manic river bluffer. Now we know we can shove AQ/AJ on missed flush boards etc. Or maybe you folded which means our note now reads "villian folded TPGK to a shove after being called on 2 streets" in which case we just shove rivers that you dont bet.
 
Stu_Ungar said:
So we can fold to all of your river bets as they are TPTK+

so the only question remaining is can we shove 100% of rivers you dont bet... you dont have TPTK+ but will you fold AJ? so we shove 55 here.. and see what you do. We get a note saying "villian wont bet TPTK but willl call with TPGK" you get a note saying "villian is a manic bluffer" but our note should yeild us more money than yours as we arent a manic river bluffer. Now we know we can shove AQ/AJ on missed flush boards etc. Or maybe you folded which means our note now reads "villian folded TPGK to a shove after being called on 2 streets" in which case we just shove rivers that you dont bet.
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You're now assuming I will never bluff on the river and will always bet with the nuts or at least TPTK+. Also there are times when I have called large river bets with a single pair. There have been many times when I had a nut flush draw and came up short on the river and went ahead and bet feeling that villain was on a smaller flush draws, same suit.

I think it is all dependent on betting lines. Like I said if villain cals my pf raise, calls on flop, calls on turn and shoves on river he almost always has a set at 5nl.

Other weird lines like a donkbet on the flop, check/call on the turn and shove on the river are usually A high, middle pairs or busted draws.

Butif I flop TPTK and get called and then get re-raised on the turn I am not very likely to continue unless villain is a maniac who just blasts away regardless of board.

Of course I always reserve the right to go broke with AA &KK so usually if I get re-raised on the flop stacks are going in. If I lose to a set oh, well. Different story for QQ/JJ/ AK. also about 50% of the time I like to check/call dry boards on the flop and if I c-bet the flop will c/c the turn unless it is a scare card just to keep the pot from growing too big.
 
fx20736 said:
There have been many times when I had a nut flush draw and came up short on the river and went ahead and bet feeling that villain was on a smaller flush draws, same suit.
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This is not a reason to bet. Your missed NFD beats his missed nonNFD anyway and he's not calling with less than A high. So your bet doesn't work as a bluff nor a value bet. That's generally the time to check behind.
 
fx20736 said:
Butif I flop TPTK and get called and then get re-raised on the turn I am not very likely to continue unless villain is a maniac who just blasts away regardless of board.
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Hence the shove with 55 just to find out where we are in terms of you folding TPGK.. if you find the call we get that "manic" note! and if you dont, we just keep on shoving!
 
fx20736 said:
That is a perfect example of the kind of hands I check behind on. I cannot believe how often villain shows up with A7 here. On occasion though villain has AK/AQ and I feel stupid for value towning for him.
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The more pressing issue, even more than not vbetting rivers imo is that your bet size when you value bet is incredibly small. And you're playing 5nl.

You should do an exercise, play a few sessions where the only goal is to pot-pot-shove every hand you are value betting, no matter what villain what board texture etc. Make it like a mandatory thing to do, no questions asked. See results after.
 
ComplexPlaya said:
The more pressing issue, even more than not vbetting rivers imo is that your bet size when you value bet is incredibly small. And you're playing 5nl.

You should do an exercise, play a few sessions where the only goal is to pot-pot-shove every hand you are value betting, no matter what villain what board texture etc. Make it like a mandatory thing to do, no questions asked. See results after.
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I agree with this as well. Bet sizing is a huge component of your WR.
 
ComplexPlaya said:
The more pressing issue, even more than not vbetting rivers imo is that your bet size when you value bet is incredibly small. And you're playing 5nl.

You should do an exercise, play a few sessions where the only goal is to pot-pot-shove every hand you are value betting, no matter what villain what board texture etc. Make it like a mandatory thing to do, no questions asked. See results after.
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I keep forgetting that most 5nl players aren't really thinking about much when the click...
 
fx20736 said:
I keep forgetting that most 5nl players aren't really thinking about much when the click...
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why are you forgetting this?

Would it help if you wrote it on a piece of paper and stuck it to your monitor?
 
Stu_Ungar said:
why are you forgetting this?

Would it help if you wrote it on a piece of paper and stuck it to your monitor?
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Tattoo would probably be better.
 
fx20736 said:
Tattoo would probably be better.
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Do that then!

But seriously, you are playing poker, you are a poker player, you must know these things.

Its no good saying the fact that people are ridiculously bad just slipped your mind, it has to be at the forefront of your decision making process.
 
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