Micro FR Study Group

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LuckyChippy said:
Fx, in the very specific situation where I'm against a full stacked player, I raise, he 3bets, I 4bet shove and he calls, they've turned up with the following this year. KQ,AK,AJ,QQ,KK,TT,KK.
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Right, and I had a villain turn up with K2, JJ & 77. But how often is it AA or KK? Also remember when you have KK you have removed 8 AK combos from a vllain's potential 3bet range so if villain's 3bet range is JJ+,AK then when you have KK he has 6 AA combos, 8 AK combos, 6 QQ combos & 6 JJ combos (and 1 KK combo which we discount) so that's 26 combos, slightly over half of which have an A and AA makes up ~ 23% of the range which bears out the fac t that the 20 times I was 3bet and then 4bet/ shoved with KK I ran into AA. I know we had a conversation about 4bet/shoving KK but I'm beginning to think that there may be better ways to play KK when OOP vs a 3bet. If you flat a 3bet and check/jam flops without an Ace you often will get called by QQ or if the dream flop of a K hits you may stack AK or AA. Also if villain is a light 3bettor and is 3betting lots of Ax hands when we flat and villain flops a pair of Queens or Jacks with AQ/AJ we could also stack him that way too.
 
fx20736 said:
Right, and I had a villain turn up with K2, JJ & 77. But how often is it AA or KK? Also remember when you have KK you have removed 8 AK combos from a vllain's potential 3bet range so if villain's 3bet range is JJ+,AK then when you have KK he has 6 AA combos, 8 AK combos, 6 QQ combos & 6 JJ combos (and 1 KK combo which we discount) so that's 26 combos, slightly over half of which have an A and AA makes up ~ 23% of the range which bears out the fac t that the 20 times I was 3bet and then 4bet/ shoved with KK I ran into AA. I know we had a conversation about 4bet/shoving KK but I'm beginning to think that there may be better ways to play KK when OOP vs a 3bet. If you flat a 3bet and check/jam flops without an Ace you often will get called by QQ or if the dream flop of a K hits you may stack AK or AA. Also if villain is a light 3bettor and is 3betting lots of Ax hands when we flat and villain flops a pair of Queens or Jacks with AQ/AJ we could also stack him that way too.
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Why would you ever flat 3bet OOP with KK. There may be merits to doing so with position in some spots but OOP you're making life so much more difficult for yourself. Sometimes when you shove KK he has AA, shit happens.
 
LuckyChippy said:
Why would you ever flat 3bet OOP with KK. There may be merits to doing so with position in some spots but OOP you're making life so much more difficult for yourself. Sometimes when you shove KK he has AA, shit happens.
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if you flat KK you are playing against a range you usually have tremendous equity against. Say you get 3bet by QQ and you flat KK. If he flops an overpair he may think he is golden and you might be able to stack him. By 4betting you fold out alot of hands that you want to play against, i.e. QQ/ JJ/ AK/ AQ. I think alot of players have this notion that, 'I have KK, I'll get my stack in' but is that really the way to maximize your EV? Say like you 4bet and villain has AQ and he folds. How is that different than if you flat KK and bet out on a non Ace flop? Same result, only if the flop has a Q you get at least one more street of value. Furthermore AQ has what, say 30% equity against KK? By 4betting (without shoving) aren't you potentially creating a +EV for villain to 5bet/shove here?
 
Everybody is not you. Who folds QQ/AK to a 4bet? The only spot I can ever see flatting KK is OTB against a light blind 3bettor who doesn't 5bet light. Even then there's not much point. People can and will stack off with AK/AQ/JJ/TT/QQ and even worse random crap. Let them.
 
LuckyChippy said:
Everybody is not you. Who folds QQ/AK to a 4bet? The only spot I can ever see flatting KK is OTB against a light blind 3bettor who doesn't 5bet light. Even then there's not much point. People can and will stack off with AK/AQ/JJ/TT/QQ and even worse random crap. Let them.
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No, everyone is not me, however the fact remains, that at full ring micros where 3bet ranges tend to be tight, when you 4bet KK you will run into AA alot, which is because having KK removes half of the AK combos from villain's possible hands. Anyone who is a grinder can attest to that. There are exceptions and some villains will stack off light but not most. Maybe it is different at 6max where you play but Full Ring is different. Like I said, when I 4bet KK I ran into AA 25% of the time and the sample size is almost 90k hands. I guarantee that if you were to fire up 12 tables of FR 5NL and checked the 3bet % on each villain only a handful would be over 3% which means villain is either 3betting JJ+/AK or is 3betting KK+ AQ+ or something simliar. KK has great equity against these ranges but by 4betting you are more likely to fold out the very hands you want to play against. Now let's say villain only calls a shove with AA/AK, I'm estimating your equity here ~ 48% (at work, no Stove) so if you've invested 4bb and risk 96bb for 104bb you are flipping for stacks. Do you like flipping for stacks? Yes some villains will call shoves with QQ/JJ ot AK and if you knew villain would always call a shove with QQ & AK then shoving against the range above would be +EV again, no stove but I'm guessing KK has ~ 58% equity against QQ+/AK so if villain folds JJ and calls QQ/AK then the dead money in the pot (~17-88bb) when he folds JJ plus the amount you win and calls with QQ/AK make this a nice haul but there is probably no way to get a good 'Call 4bet' stat on anyone. Since we rarely ever get a large enough sample to make a very accurate assumption we will almost always be guessing at their 3betting range and will be even more in the dark with their call 4bet or 5bet/shove range.

This isn't ivory tower stuff, PT3 tells me that I lose money when I shove KK over a 3bet. Maybe that's just what Full Ring is like. Maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows? I've never really tried flatting KK OOP vs a 3bet so I'm wondering if anyone else has done this and how it has worked for them.
 
By the way.

There is an excellent COTW on 2+2 that deals with playing KK that discusses 4betting KK in some detail.

The author of the COTW is mypethybridge and can be found here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-playing-kk-682495/


one passage of note:

In the last few stats analyses I have done for people where I checked this stat, EVERYBODY has been negative AIPF with KK. All of them have been indiscriminately shipping KK. I just did a stat review Saturday for a well known solid reg at $100. That player was playing a very aggressive preflop game. The player was shipping AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK a lot and AQ and TT a fair amount, as well as other random stuff on occasion, and equity adjusted, was losing $$ shipping all of it against full stackers except, of course, for AA.

Go through your database and look at what people are getting all in with. unless there is an unusual situation, full-stacked people are only shoving AA and KK--this is true even for the 72/41 droolers.

So is our job to simply stop shipping KK preflop? NO! Our job is to create unusual situations where we can ship KK preflop and be perceived to be lighter. Shipping with KK is fine, provided that we are 4 betting a reasonable range. The leak most people have is not that they indiscriminately ship KK preflop, it is that they are not 4 betting a wide enough range. Calling a 5 bet shove with KK is only going to be +EV if you can convince some of the people some of the time that you can 4 bet light. Otherwise you are going to be looking at AA most of the time.

Look, even a drooler can see that you only have AA or KK when you 4 bet. What you have to show the drooler is that you will 4 bet/fold, or 4 bet/call lighter than that. The drooler is not good enough to realize that you are carefully picking your spots. He will make too broad generalizations about your play. So, for example, if you are OTB and there is a crazy aggro 3 bettor in the blinds (say a 6% 3 bet stat) and you steal, the 3 bettor 3 bets, and you 4 bet, there is no bad result for you when you think about how the drooler will view that hand. If you 4 bet fold, say, 77, the drooler will look at that hand and say, “lol, the button was making a stand and then chickened out.” Or something like that. So the next time he raises, and you 3 bet him, he will think, “hah, this is the guy that folds to 4 bets.” Or if you 5 bet ship on the aggro guy with A7s, AK or JJ and it goes to showdown, the drooler will see that hand and think, “wow, this guy ships light,” and the next time you 3 bet him, he will be more likely to get it in preflop.

So you need to be constantly manipulating your image at the table. If you have been card dead, and a nit raises from UTG and you 3 bet and he 4 bets you, his range is significantly narrower than it is when he 4 bets if you have 3 bet somebody on each of the last three orbits. You have to keep your image uppermost in your mind.
 
fx20736 said:
This isn't ivory tower stuff, PT3 tells me that I lose money when I shove KK over a 3bet. Maybe that's just what Full Ring is like. Maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows? I've never really tried flatting KK OOP vs a 3bet so I'm wondering if anyone else has done this and how it has worked for them.
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Are you losing money when called or overall? 4betting KK for me is a winner overall but it's a loser when called. In other words I make more when people 3bet/fold than I lose when they 3bet/call.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Are you losing money when called or overall? 4betting KK for me is a winner overall but it's a loser when called. In other words I make more when people 3bet/fold than I lose when they 3bet/call.
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I'll check when I get home and let you know but if you are losing at (100nl??) when you get called when you 4bet KK that is really saying something.

How often is your 4bet a shove? (assuming 100bb effective stacks). How much 4bet/ bluffing are you doing?

btw: had you read that COTW before?

also I have skipped playing 3 of the past 4 days. I think I am off tilt now but there are a few things I am working out in my mind so it could be another day or so before I feel ready to play.
 
That's actually across my entire sample (25-100nl). I rarely 4bet shove anymore but I'm sure that sample had several 4bet shoves in it. Actually breaking it down by limits 4betting KK was much more profitable at 25 and 50nl that it is at 100nl.
 
WVHillbilly said:
That's actually across my entire sample (25-100nl). I rarely 4bet shove anymore but I'm sure that sample had several 4bet shoves in it. Actually breaking it down by limits 4betting KK was much more profitable at 25 and 50nl that it is at 100nl.
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ok, thanks.

The more I think about it, if we don't want a call when we 4bet, aren't we essentially turning KK into a bluff? And if we flat a 3bet with KK aren't we playing against a range we do very well against? If we flop an overpair and villain folds we get the same result as if they folded preflop and we may get extra bets from smaller overpairs/ top pair hands or draws that we otherwise might not. Also, not to sound nitty but if an Ace hits the flop and AK/AQ is a pretty big part of vllain's assumed 3bet range we get away more cheaply than if we stacked off and lost.
 
fx20736 said:
ok, thanks.

The more I think about it, if we don't want a call when we 4bet, aren't we essentially turning KK into a bluff? And if we flat a 3bet with KK aren't we playing against a range we do very well against? If we flop an overpair and villain folds we get the same result as if they folded preflop and we may get extra bets from smaller overpairs/ top pair hands or draws that we otherwise might not. Also, not to sound nitty but if an Ace hits the flop and AK/AQ is a pretty big part of vllain's assumed 3bet range we get away more cheaply than if we stacked off and lost.
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Well AK is not a big part of their 3bet range since we have 2 Kings.

Also just checked and 4betting KK and getting called was profitable up to 100nl. In other words at 25nl and 50nl people were willing to 5bet lighter or call a 4bet shove lighter.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Well AK is not a big part of their 3bet range since we have 2 Kings.

Also just checked and 4betting KK and getting called was profitable up to 100nl. In other words at 25nl and 50nl people were willing to 5bet lighter or call a 4bet shove lighter.
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if they are 3betting JJ+/AK then evenw ith the 2 Kings removed there are still 8 AK combos which makes up 40% of his range.

I would say if it was profitable for you then you are either really,really good at table selction or do enough 4bet/bluffing to make villains call/ shove light against you.
 
How is 8 combos 40% of a JJ+/AK range???

Total combos with KK removed:
AK - 8
JJ+ -19

8/27 = 30%
 
fx20736 said:
I would say if it was profitable for you then you are either really,really good at table selction or do enough 4bet/bluffing to make villains call/ shove light against you.
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You forgot an obvious and imo the most correct reason it was profitable. Villains at lower stakes are really really bad.
 
WVHillbilly said:
How is 8 combos 40% of a JJ+/AK range???

Total combos with KK removed:
AK - 8
JJ+ -19

8/27 = 30%
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AA 6
QQ 6
JJ 6
AK 8

total 20 combos

8/20 is 40%
 
WVHillbilly said:
So you think 6+6+6+8=20??? Oh yeah and you forgot 1 KK combo.
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I ignored the KK combo because it doesn't have any effect on EV, does it?. Yeah, I'm really mentally exhausted from work so that adds up to 26. AK thus makes up ~ 32% of his range.

So we get 3 tractor trailers to unload every morning between 0530 & 0630, today 2 of the 3 get stuck in the icy mess in our yard. I've got 30 impatient drivers sitting around waiting while we frantically try to get them unstuck. finally We get a back hoe to pull them free and then it's sheer bedlam as we hand unload 1700 packages, scan, sort and get them out the door,a ll without a disaptcher who is on vacation so I am tapped dry.

btw: I noticed my post count is 1991. So fast to the brink of 2k!!!! So I may need to go radio silent here in a few posts to work on it.
 
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fx20736 said:
I ignored the KK combo because it doesn't have any effect on EV, does it?. Yeah, I'm really mentally exhausted from work so that adds up to 26. AK thus makes up ~ 32% of his range.
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Of course that 1 KK combo has an effect on EV. KK's equity goes down about .5% if villain can have the other KK. It's tie equity but still.
 
See the thing is when we are in here discussing 3bet\4bet ranges,combos,bet sizing etc.Villain at 6 max 5nl\10nl is saying OMG "i got JJ must get it in now".Then when they call my 4bet shove they see my KK they say OMG "online poker is rigged".
 
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Flatting is just a term for calling a bet or raise.

Usage: TAG in EP opens and I flat with pocket 3s.
 
Note what villain had when he 4 bet me when I 3bet KK. Is there an echo in here?


PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $1.04
UTG+1: $8.34
Hero (MP): $5.16
MP+1: $1.93
LP: $5.00
CO: $9.28
BTN: $2.90
SB: $1.81
BB: $2.00
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K♠ K♦
fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.67, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.14, Hero calls $0.47
Flop: ($2.35, 2 players) K♥ 2♥ T♣
UTG+1 bets $7.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.02 and is all-in
Turn: ($10.39, 2 players) 7♠
River: ($10.39, 2 players) 8♣
UTG+1 shows A♥ A♦ (One Pair, Aces)
Hero shows K♠ K♦ (Three of a Kind, Kings)
Hero wins $9.88


Also that was the high point of a session that actually has me contemplating a cash out and quitting poker.
 
fx20736 said:
Note what villain had when he 4 bet me when I 3bet KK. Is there an echo in here?


PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $1.04
UTG+1: $8.34
Hero (MP): $5.16
MP+1: $1.93
LP: $5.00
CO: $9.28
BTN: $2.90
SB: $1.81
BB: $2.00
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K♠ K♦
fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.67, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.14, Hero calls $0.47
Flop: ($2.35, 2 players) K♥ 2♥ T♣
UTG+1 bets $7.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.02 and is all-in
Turn: ($10.39, 2 players) 7♠
River: ($10.39, 2 players) 8♣
UTG+1 shows A♥ A♦ (One Pair, Aces)
Hero shows K♠ K♦ (Three of a Kind, Kings)
Hero wins $9.88


Also that was the high point of a session that actually has me contemplating a cash out and quitting poker.
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Was he a nit? If you read that CotW you posted that's one of the spots where mpethy suggests flatting.
Seriously it happens fx, I had AK and 99 shipped on me last session. I had KK and AA respectively. 3betting KK shows a huge profit and people can and will 4bet AK and QQ and sometimes JJ even if they're quite TAG/Nitty.
 
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