Micro FR Study Group

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Stu_Ungar said:
why?
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It's not because I think I won't start winning again.

It is perhaps, because I am not sure I want to be subject to the vicissitudes of variance, a life where I might go for long stretches of poker which are joyless, pain-filled, drudgery. When the activity I choose to do for 'fun' is in fact anything but I have to think, how long will I endure this pain? I have not reached that point but this past week has at least make me contemplate it. I have lost almost 40% of my bankroll in 6 days. Even if you remove some tilt induced losses I still am so ridiculously below AIEV as to be laughable.

If anyone could give me a conceptual framework for dealing with these losses then maybe I would look at things differently.

At this moment I look and see that my bankroll is just above $ 200. How much more do I want it to shrink before I say enough?
 
LuckyChippy said:
Was he a nit? If you read that CotW you posted that's one of the spots where mpethy suggests flatting.
Seriously it happens fx, I had AK and 99 shipped on me last session. I had KK and AA respectively. 3betting KK shows a huge profit and people can and will 4bet AK and QQ and sometimes JJ even if they're quite TAG/Nitty.
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sample size is small for villain (45 hands) but he was 69/4.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Are you losing money when called or overall? 4betting KK for me is a winner overall but it's a loser when called. In other words I make more when people 3bet/fold than I lose when they 3bet/call.
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at PS5 I am a loser with KK overall when I 4bet with KK after being 3bet. I was a 6.54 BB/ hand winner with it on FT2 which has a sample size double my PS5 one.
 
KK vs

Mostly i find when i bet 3 bet KK, if someone goes over the top of me, then its a sure sign that someone has has AA, saying that i have found i'm going to experiment with 4 betting the top three hands, definitely not AK which i generally slow play half the time looking to trap, and 3 bet the other fifty percent of the time.
 
fx20736 said:
It's not because I think I won't start winning again.

It is perhaps, because I am not sure I want to be subject to the vicissitudes of variance, a life where I might go for long stretches of poker which are joyless, pain-filled, drudgery. When the activity I choose to do for 'fun' is in fact anything but I have to think, how long will I endure this pain? I have not reached that point but this past week has at least make me contemplate it. I have lost almost 40% of my bankroll in 6 days. Even if you remove some tilt induced losses I still am so ridiculously below AIEV as to be laughable.

If anyone could give me a conceptual framework for dealing with these losses then maybe I would look at things differently.

At this moment I look and see that my bankroll is just above $ 200. How much more do I want it to shrink before I say enough?
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Have a look at this variance simulator to get some idea of the world of pain you might experience with a winrate of 2bb/100.

http://www.evplusplus.com/poker_tools/variance_simulator/

You have to embrace variance and accept it. Just think about the long term and aim to play each session as best as possible.

If youre not willing to accept it, then you might be better off just playing a few sng/mtts recreationally.
 
Jagsti said:
Have a look at this variance simulator to get some idea of the world of pain you might experience with a winrate of 2bb/100.

http://www.evplusplus.com/poker_tools/variance_simulator/

You have to embrace variance and accept it. Just think about the long term and aim to play each session as best as possible.

If youre not willing to accept it, then you might be better off just playing a few sng/mtts recreationally.
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Thanks for this, will check out when I get home from work.

I will keep working at coping with variance. The hardest part isnot chaning your game because of results. Sometimes the reward & punishment system is so ingrained that it's hard to separate actions from results.
 
fx20736 said:
Thanks for this, will check out when I get home from work.

I will keep working at coping with variance. The hardest part isnot chaning your game because of results. Sometimes the reward & punishment system is so ingrained that it's hard to separate actions from results.
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I think as you become a better poker player and more fully understand the game and your reasons for your actions, as you better assign ranges and become better able to exploit opponents tendencies, the better you are able to seperate actions from results.

Right now I just press buttons and when I win or I was right that he'd fold or whatever, I think I'm sick good 🙂
 
What do you guys do in terms of table selection? I'm trying to be nitty about finding good tables, but it seems to take so damn long. Do you guys have any good filters/programs/etc that you use to find juicy fish?
 
Lofwyr said:
What do you guys do in terms of table selection? I'm trying to be nitty about finding good tables, but it seems to take so damn long. Do you guys have any good filters/programs/etc that you use to find juicy fish?
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What stakes are you playing?
 
Sit at any open seat as long as the table has no more than 1 shorty (under 50bbs) and no shorty in the 2 seats to your immediate right. At 10nl everyone sucks and you need to learn how to beat them all imo.

Alternately have you ever tried sitting at empty tables and playing REALLY bad players short-handed until the table fills?
 
WVHillbilly said:
Sit at any open seat as long as the table has no more than 1 shorty (under 50bbs) and no shorty in the 2 seats to your immediate right. At 10nl everyone sucks and you need to learn how to beat them all imo.

Alternately have you ever tried sitting at empty tables and playing REALLY bad players short-handed until the table fills?
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That second part is fun. I make tons of money (HEM confirms) playing players HU at 6max/FR tables.

Also yeah just make sure the guy to your right isn't a shorty (2 if possible like WV said) and if you can get at least one fishy looking type player. 45/2 45/35, you know the type. If not find a new table as there's plenty out there at these limits.

I disagree with WV slightly in that I don't think we need to settle for bad tables to learn how to beat them. There are tables out there where you have a massive edge so go out and find them, keep moving around until you have a good selection of fish.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Alternately have you ever tried sitting at empty tables and playing REALLY bad players short-handed until the table fills?
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LuckyChippy said:
That second part is fun. I make tons of money (HEM confirms) playing players HU at 6max/FR tables.
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I'd never really thought of that. I'll give it a go at some point and see what happens 🙂

LuckyChippy said:
Also yeah just make sure the guy to your right isn't a shorty (2 if possible like WV said) and if you can get at least one fishy looking type player. 45/2 45/35, you know the type. If not find a new table as there's plenty out there at these limits.
I disagree with WV slightly in that I don't think we need to settle for bad tables to learn how to beat them. There are tables out there where you have a massive edge so go out and find them, keep moving around until you have a good selection of fish.
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This is basically what I mean. Probably up until 50nl or 100nl there will generally be tables around with giant fishy fish so why stick at a table with the minnows? Giant minnows, but minnows in comparison nonetheless. I'd much rather take the really fishy money at obscene rates than grind out a very slow rate against a table of nitty type players.

I also think table selecting to find these guys is a skill that you have to work at kind of. As long as I'm learning stuff and building good habit in the uNL games I might as well try to improve my table selection skills too. They'll probably become beneficial in moving up.

I was mainly hoping you guys had tips to help these looser/spewier players more quickly. I've mainly been looking at tables with open seats and an average stack of 100bb+. You think %flop/avg. pot are more useful?

Also...going over ~4k hands at 6max played this month I have learned something I think is probably critical.
I am a huge station 🙁


Seriously...my top4 losing hands are AKs/AQs/KK/AKo in that order.
 
New Topic

Donk betting

nothing is more frustrating than open raising, one of the blinds calls and then immediately donk bets the flop. This is especially irritating when you completely miss the board. Your options are to re-raise (doing that with AK on a 9 high flop can be risky at best), float or just fold. Unless villain has some off the wall AF and just bets because betting is what he does I tend to fold.

another similair scenario is when villain open limps, calls your raise and then donks the flop. Often times villains will fire another barrell on the turn putting me in a difficult spot.

Let's say villain open limps from MP. I am in the CO with AsJs. I raise to 4.5bb, everyone folds and he calls. Flop comes down KcTs5d. I've flopped a gutshot, backdoor flush and an overcard. Villain donks for 10bb. Do we re-raise here even if we think he won't fold? Now let's say we call and the turn is 6s. Now we have a four flush. Villain fires another barrel, this time for 30bb. We have (~30%???) equity here, pot is 60bb, we have 85bb behind. Villain's stack is 55bb. If we shove villain has to call 55bb to win 145bb so we cannot create a +EV situation here. If we call the pot on the river is 90bb, we have 55bb behind. 7 out of 10 times we miss and have to fold to a bet after putting in roughly half of our stack. How do I play these situations better?
 
fx20736 said:
New Topic

Donk betting

nothing is more frustrating than open raising, one of the blinds calls and then immediately donk bets the flop. This is especially irritating when you completely miss the board. Your options are to re-raise (doing that with AK on a 9 high flop can be risky at best), float or just fold. Unless villain has some off the wall AF and just bets because betting is what he does I tend to fold.

another similair scenario is when villain open limps, calls your raise and then donks the flop. Often times villains will fire another barrell on the turn putting me in a difficult spot.

Let's say villain open limps from MP. I am in the CO with AsJs. I raise to 4.5bb, everyone folds and he calls. Flop comes down KcTs5d. I've flopped a gutshot, backdoor flush and an overcard. Villain donks for 10bb. Do we re-raise here even if we think he won't fold? Now let's say we call and the turn is 6s. Now we have a four flush. Villain fires another barrel, this time for 30bb. We have (~30%???) equity here, pot is 60bb, we have 85bb behind. Villain's stack is 55bb. If we shove villain has to call 55bb to win 145bb so we cannot create a +EV situation here. If we call the pot on the river is 90bb, we have 55bb behind. 7 out of 10 times we miss and have to fold to a bet after putting in roughly half of our stack. How do I play these situations better?
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I'm glad you brought this up FX this is what i feel is my biggest leak now.I realy don't know how to play this.It seems what i've been facing lately is donk better limps lets say i have aq off in the CO raise 4-5bb villain calls.Flop something like 478 two toned he leads at the pot 3\4-pot.Also it seems these players are normaly buying in with ~50bb.Is this some new 2+2 strategy or something because i'm lost here.
 
Yeah i had a problem the other day when i had AK and missed the flop and villain does a silly 1bb bet, do we take this as weak and raise? what if called and he does the same on turn?
 
If villain min bet donks the flop then we ignore it and cbet as normal
 
Jurn8 said:
donk betting is very dependent on villian and board texture imo
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+1

The donk-bet size is important as well I find. Min-donk bets are almost always a very marginal hand or draw. I rarely find someone min-donk and 3bet if I raise them. Donk-bets over 1/2 pot is where villain/board become critical.

Like...the AJss example is impossible to evaluate without knowing more about villain. In a vacuum I'm tempted to think the flop is a raise/fold spot though, floating isn't going to work out well often enough.
 
On donk betting:

If the bet is silly in size (min bet or 1/4 pot) treat it as a check. If you would have cbet the flop, raise the min bet, if you would have checked behind, call it.

If they cbet bigger, you're going to need to play it a little more straight up.

When 1/2 stackers donk large just assume they're never folding (even though they occasionally do) and estimate your equity/odds (implied / pot) and call/raise/fold accordingly.

When full stackers donk large, you have a little more leeway to call and see what they do on the turn. Obviously we'd like to have a hand with some real equity (even if it just 6 over outs) and since stacks are deeper we should consider our fold equity on the turn. Say we hold AQo on a 783ds board, we have 6 real outs (As & Qs) and at least 8 outs from overs that we can bet at (Js & Ks) not to mention the fact that our hand might win at SD if villain is donking something like 9To.

I used to just auto-raise all donk bets (and still raise my fair share) but I think calling larger donk bets and trying to make a hand or take the pot on the turn is often better.

Also you need to consider your opponent's tendencies. If a loose passive suddenly starts betting into you, you're likely crushed. If he's a maniac, A-high is often good enough.
 
WVHillbilly said:
On donk betting:

If the bet is silly in size (min bet or 1/4 pot) treat it as a check. If you would have cbet the flop, raise the min bet, if you would have checked behind, call it.

If they cbet bigger, you're going to need to play it a little more straight up.

When 1/2 stackers donk large just assume they're never folding (even though they occasionally do) and estimate your equity/odds (implied / pot) and call/raise/fold accordingly.

When full stackers donk large, you have a little more leeway to call and see what they do on the turn. Obviously we'd like to have a hand with some real equity (even if it just 6 over outs) and since stacks are deeper we should consider our fold equity on the turn. Say we hold AQo on a 783ds board, we have 6 real outs (As & Qs) and at least 8 outs from overs that we can bet at (Js & Ks) not to mention the fact that our hand might win at SD if villain is donking something like 9To.

I used to just auto-raise all donk bets (and still raise my fair share) but I think calling larger donk bets and trying to make a hand or take the pot on the turn is often better.

Also you need to consider your opponent's tendencies. If a loose passive suddenly starts betting into you, you're likely crushed. If he's a maniac, A-high is often good enough.
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aggro-tards who donk bet just blast away so if you call you need to prepare to bet/fold the turn.

Also on the min donk bet. Alot of villains do this with a strong made hand to test the waters and if called bet larger on the turn. What they don't get is that they are pricing you in to outdraw them.

I'm not sure what it is but in the last few weeks c-betting is becoming less and less successful. Villains who limp/call a preflop raise with K4o and hit the 4 on the flop rarely fold and often donk the flop. Trying to take hands away from them is usually not possible without a hand.

I think that if you have a powerful combo/draw on the flop it is better to try and manipulate the size of the pot in relation to remaining stack sizes for a possible shove but to simply call down a donkey because you have 12-15 outs is such a leak. You would be better off just playing AK/ AQ / AJ/ KQ against the worst/most aggro opponents and playing for top pair decent kicker in position or to 3bet wider with 99, AQ., AJs.

Against Nits/ TAGs who will rarely risk getting their stack in without a strong hands you can push nut flush draws or OESDs aggressively.
 
fx20736 said:
aggro-tards who donk bet just blast away so if you call you need to prepare to bet/fold the turn.

Also on the min donk bet. Alot of villains do this with a strong made hand to test the waters and if called bet larger on the turn. What they don't get is that they are pricing you in to outdraw them.

I'm not sure what it is but in the last few weeks c-betting is becoming less and less successful. Villains who limp/call a preflop raise with K4o and hit the 4 on the flop rarely fold and often donk the flop. Trying to take hands away from them is usually not possible without a hand.

I think that if you have a powerful combo/draw on the flop it is better to try and manipulate the size of the pot in relation to remaining stack sizes for a possible shove but to simply call down a donkey because you have 12-15 outs is such a leak. You would be better off just playing AK/ AQ / AJ/ KQ against the worst/most aggro opponents and playing for top pair decent kicker in position or to 3bet wider with 99, AQ., AJs.

Against Nits/ TAGs who will rarely risk getting their stack in without a strong hands you can push nut flush draws or OESDs aggressively.
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Sounds pretty awesome to me, go win money.

Also, yeah most of the equity from draws comes from the pressure we can apply and the fact that we have 30ish% even when called. It does require they will fold though sometimes unless we have a monster draw. Against bad lags and passive calling stations, hitting and then value betting is often better unless you have like TP too and they'll stack off worse.
 
How do you guys handle WAWB type situations when OOP? Do you tend to favor just betting your hand or is checking and evaluating still a more ideal line? Similarly, do you give WAWB much precedence in 3bet pots?

2 examples...mainly wondering if I missed good value by firing flop and not checking.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1258575
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $34.66
MP: $10.00
CO: $13.95
BTN: $5.90
SB: $42.61
Hero (BB): $11.57

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A
diamond.gif
K
spade.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, 1 fold, SB calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.30, 1 fold, SB calls $1

Flop: ($2.90) T
club.gif
5
diamond.gif
A
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.90, SB folds

Final Pot: $2.90
Hero wins $2.76
(Rake: $0.14)

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1258577
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $34.66
CO: $13.95
BTN: $7.11
SB: $33.71
Hero (BB): $10.09

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
K
diamond.gif

2 folds, BTN calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, BTN calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) A
spade.gif
3
diamond.gif
5
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BTN folds

Final Pot: $0.85
Hero wins $0.81
(Rake: $0.04)
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1st hand villain's were both fairly TAG-y bordering on nit-like for 6max. Only ~40 hands on them though.
2nd hand the limper was a loose/passive station-type.
 
Those aren't really WA/WB situations. I would bet the flop in both hands.

1st hand you have TPTK in a 3bet pot and the second you have TPTK against a station. Not betting in either of those situations doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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