What do you do with pocket tens in the big blind? Ordinarily I raise to limit my opponents and take the pot down, but with 5 limpers it seems pointless as too many over-cards will call and you are out of position after all. Limping in as well seems to be the better option here, planning to get away from anything that isn't a set. The problem is when a 9-high flop comes and you now have an over-pair... betting, checking, re-raising, calling, folding - suddenly they all feel like the sub-optimal play simply because of the amount of players in the hand.
With 5 limpers, assuming you raise to something like 3bb + 1bb per limper, how many callers do you expect to get? And players who are going to call with overs that they only limped also seem likely to call with smaller pairs.
If you're at a table where you're likely to get more than 1 or 2 callers, raising is higher variance than calling. But it's a soft table. If you have to raise more to narrow the field, why is it bad to build a larger pot against inferior opponents when you're ahead?
If you're at a table where you're likely to get more than 1 or 2 callers, raising is higher variance than calling. But it's a soft table. If you have to raise more to narrow the field, why is it bad to build a larger pot against inferior opponents when you're ahead?
Inflating the pot so much OOP with a medium pair is a great way to lose a crapload of money quickly.
That being said, if we are set mining then I like a normal 3bb raise to pump the pot in case we do get our set. Then on a AT7 board (or similar) we can easily stack Aces that won't fold 🙂
That being said, if we are set mining then I like a normal 3bb raise to pump the pot in case we do get our set. Then on a AT7 board (or similar) we can easily stack Aces that won't fold 🙂
This isn't the full picture, just the worst case scenario. You seem to assume a lot more money is going in even when the flop is bad.LD1977 said:
What about the times you raise to 8-10bb, everyone folds and you win 6.5bb?
And since we're talking about weak opponents, it's not exactly out of the question to win some pots even when we miss the flop.
Sure, you might lose a big pot, but how is inflating a pot when ahead against a weak opponent who will call a large raise with a hand that was only worth limping not a very good way to make money overall?
limp check
It is an easy limp pre flop against so many limpers, unless you hit a set there is no need to bet the flop. If u think the flop is safe then check and call the flop bet unless there is a 3bet situation and then evaluate on later street. try to get to a cheap showdown. :smokin:
It is an easy limp pre flop against so many limpers, unless you hit a set there is no need to bet the flop. If u think the flop is safe then check and call the flop bet unless there is a 3bet situation and then evaluate on later street. try to get to a cheap showdown. :smokin:
Optimum actions will depend on your opponents at the table. If there are a lot of fish just limp to see the flop, you should raise big to isolate them, even if you are out of position now. Obviously you don't want other regular guys limp in for cheap with small pairs or suit connectors. Pocket tens play best against 1-2 opponents.
However you should always be cautious some of the limpers might hold Aces or Kings to trap. If they come over the top and reraise you, you should fold.
I believe Pocket Tens and Jacks are tricky hands to play and you need a lot of observation at the table to play those hands perfectly.
However you should always be cautious some of the limpers might hold Aces or Kings to trap. If they come over the top and reraise you, you should fold.
I believe Pocket Tens and Jacks are tricky hands to play and you need a lot of observation at the table to play those hands perfectly.
dont check there. you need to try to isolate 1 or 2 players maximum so your chances of winning the hand would be much greater than playing with 5 other players. in this scenario raising 8 or more bb could be the best way to play. even shoving with a short stack is the correct way to play the hand imo.
Squeeze Play
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbcBTpQxs9hA&ei=9uQQU5biGsL1oAShm4CwBg&usg=AFQjCNG4cByNgyeAtpUIJ9ci8FO88KmkMA&bvm=bv.62286460,d.cGU
That leads to a tournament hand where the button squeezes with way less than TT, but think it thru...consider 5 limpers and you.
EP both will decide that you have something more real than they do, AND there are several more to act, and they will fold, leaving 3 +you, then
MP and button both came along, and probably SB too, just because the pot odds looked good. You have shown that you have something serious, and they all fold, and you win all those limps.
All 5 of those limpers probably had broadway cards, or SC's, all of which might validate a fishing expedition (in their minds), but in the face of a storm (your shove) they decide to put away their poles.
Granted that the tourney hand shown shows the added issues of tourney thinking, but the concepts in cash ring games for a single hand, should hold.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbcBTpQxs9hA&ei=9uQQU5biGsL1oAShm4CwBg&usg=AFQjCNG4cByNgyeAtpUIJ9ci8FO88KmkMA&bvm=bv.62286460,d.cGU
That leads to a tournament hand where the button squeezes with way less than TT, but think it thru...consider 5 limpers and you.
EP both will decide that you have something more real than they do, AND there are several more to act, and they will fold, leaving 3 +you, then
MP and button both came along, and probably SB too, just because the pot odds looked good. You have shown that you have something serious, and they all fold, and you win all those limps.
All 5 of those limpers probably had broadway cards, or SC's, all of which might validate a fishing expedition (in their minds), but in the face of a storm (your shove) they decide to put away their poles.
Granted that the tourney hand shown shows the added issues of tourney thinking, but the concepts in cash ring games for a single hand, should hold.
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The biggest problem here isn't your hand, or the number of people limping; it's your position. For me, it's an easy shove IP but in the BB, it really depends upon the table read, but I would lean towards a larger PFR, as necessary, to weed out the drawing hands. Good question, though 😉
4bb pre flop raise, then missing the set check/ raise no matter what the flop looks like, if it is 9 high again check/ raise and then if u have opponents u should check raise the turn and he will check the river if he don't have the nuts. That is the way i would play my pocket 10's!
Depends on the other players. I raise in these situations most of the time if there are mostly OK players in the hand. I had a guy laughing at my squeeze of 4 players last night, each of them snap folding. Depending then on who is left on the flop, I'll adjust my play. Yes you are likely folding if there are good players left and there are overcards etc. but you are also isolating weaker players you have a better chance against even OOP. Also, if you 3bet large and you hit your set, you can bet paid very well if your followers have also hit. Just be mindful of oversets.
with T, T in the big blind, depends on the stage of the tournament, if the beginning of the tournament, or are about to enter the bubble, or are on the bubble, also the number of blinds you have is important. there are several factors to pay, raise, re-raise or fold ..
I always bet say if it was 1c 2c with four limpers I'd bet 12... so 3bb but + another bb per player that limped to trim the fat... Since they have shown weakness we can cbet the full pot and safely get the pot... If someones trapping hopefully we've hit the set and trap them 🙂
Interesting thoughts guys, thanks for your replies.
After reading this, I think the general consensus is aggressiveness will pay off more-so than limping here, which seems obvious considering basic game theory and tourney play. This is my following conclusion for cash games:
It could be optimal to shove, if:
- you are short-stacked
- you know your opponent types are v.unlikely to limp with over-pairs
- you are in a 6-max (or an incomplete ring)
It could be optimal to raise >4BB, if:
- you have a healthy stack
- you know you can limit your opponent numbers to <=2
- you are reasonably confident in your post-flop ability
I'm unsure about any case for limping now because if we are uncertain of the above criteria then we probably can't play optimally anyway (it is borderline nit territory). The price for the cheap flop and a cheap showdown is that we are more likely to lose the pot. I don't think being passive or a nit is optimal here even if it is better than being a TAGfish. I believe it is possible to win more times than we lose here, and still catch a good pot when the set or low flop hits, but we can't do that as much when we limp.
After reading this, I think the general consensus is aggressiveness will pay off more-so than limping here, which seems obvious considering basic game theory and tourney play. This is my following conclusion for cash games:
It could be optimal to shove, if:
- you are short-stacked
- you know your opponent types are v.unlikely to limp with over-pairs
- you are in a 6-max (or an incomplete ring)
It could be optimal to raise >4BB, if:
- you have a healthy stack
- you know you can limit your opponent numbers to <=2
- you are reasonably confident in your post-flop ability
I'm unsure about any case for limping now because if we are uncertain of the above criteria then we probably can't play optimally anyway (it is borderline nit territory). The price for the cheap flop and a cheap showdown is that we are more likely to lose the pot. I don't think being passive or a nit is optimal here even if it is better than being a TAGfish. I believe it is possible to win more times than we lose here, and still catch a good pot when the set or low flop hits, but we can't do that as much when we limp.
Good synopsis, except with 5 limpers that agro raise will both want, and need to be much bigger than 4 BB. 8 at least, if not a total shove. The cases for limping would apply to marginal hands with good potential, like 45s and such, babies maybe. But in your example TT is strong enough to squeeze with reasonable confidence. A traditional amount for any raise is 3BB PLUS another BB for each limper, which means at least 8 BB. But even then, depending on your perception of the players at that table, it will only take 1 EP player to call that to make for enticing implied odds for others to come along. So for that reason, a shove is probably better than that 8BB raise.
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Make a larger raise then usual, especially if your villains are call happy. Just completing is way to nittish and you can get value from a lot worse, just don't think there aces post flop. If your somewhat short don't feel bad about just out right shoving either.
shanest said:
This is in the cash games section, it is different to tourney play. I agree with the tourney strategy when short-stacked, but if you are all-in every time with TT on a cash table you will quickly lose your bankroll. Whilst limping isn't optimal, it is probably still better than shoving every time with a large stack.