Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

or3o1990 said:

I may be giving him more credit than he deserved but he seemed like one of the better players at the table for sure. Hindsight is 20/20 right? As I was posting this I was thinking even if I'd just made it 31 instead of 25 it would have been better.

Also, I have an unrelated question for you John. What is your opinion on nootropics?

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I haven't used them so I don't have much of an opinion. I do use ginko though, but not regularly. My only regular supplements are multi-vitamins, fish oil, and pro-biotics / coconut water. In general though I try and eat healthy. In the US especially, our food supply is complete poison.

Literally right now as I'm responding to your question I was talking to a friend on skype who has struggled with thyroid and several major health issues for many years. We've talked about it several times, and the doctors of course just want to give him drugs. Ummmm, I'm no doctor but he has ALL of the signs of gluten sensitivity. Get him a test at least and work on dietary changes. But of course they don't want to do this because doctors know people don't want to change the pleasure they get from their poisoned food. It's much easier to just give them a drug so they can keep killing themselves with that crap. I mean the food is literally poison in every sense of the word.

The FDA just came out with another announcement this week. Processed meats are more cancerous than smoking cigarettes. Uhhh, no shit Sherlock.

It just pisses me off that we waste all this money on cancer research (although recent break throughs are pretty awesome), and wearing pink ribbons and all this crud, and all we need to do is get rid of all the sugary, over processed, preservative laden toxins out of our food. That's the damn cause of 98% of all this medical misery going on.

So no opinions on the supplement, but plenty on other things. lol

All about the money in the end

John A said:

if you find a consistent pattern to what you're doing, like you're suddenly taking more passive lines instead of lines you know will be better, then that's an important question you need to ask yourself. Why am I not making the highest EV play? What am I afraid of?

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We talked about this briefly before. This applies to me and I don't really understand why!

My best guess is it might have something to do with not liking high variance because I find it tilting.
I was a steady winner at the lower micros just playing a variety of hands, folding to aggression, floating some and not getting stacked with 1 pair hands and being proud of not getting stacked or tilted.
I knew this style probably wouldn't cut the mustard higher up the levels so I've attempted to increase my 3betting and squeezing make more aggressive plays and mixing it up.
Last night I was tired but determined to get in some volume after a low month caused by workload and runbad but yesterday I just got utterly steamrollered at 25nl.
My goals set in the other thread are nowhere in sight.
So does anyone have any suggestions as to what adjustments to make?

Raise or just call turn?
Here I was caught between; just calling the turn and letting him fire again and raising to protect against a whole host of potentially difficult river cards.
What do people think is best on the turn. I have a feeling raising just made our hand face up, but couldn't we just as easily be doing this with draws?
Probably my sizing is too big.


Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25.63 (102.5 bb)
BB: $19.53 (78.1 bb)
UTG+1: $31.29 (125.2 bb)
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $9.65 (38.6 bb)
MP2: $24.51 (98 bb)
MP3: $26.90 (107.6 bb) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 14, 3B: 8, AF: 4.0, Hands: 136
CO: $12.34 (49.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8:club: 8:diamond:
4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, CO folds, Hero calls $0.75, SB folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) 8:spade: 7:diamond: J:spade: (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80, BB folds

Turn: ($5.95) A:diamond: (2 players)
MP3 bets $3.10, Hero raises to $9.04, MP3 folds

Results: $12.15 pot ($0.55 rake)
Final Board: 8:spade: 7:diamond: J:spade: A:diamond:
MP3 mucked and lost (-$5.65 net)
Hero mucked 8:club: 8:diamond: and won $11.60 ($5.95 net)

So no opinions on the supplement, but plenty on other things. lol

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I've used this neuro3x stuff my buddy had a couple of times and it has ginko in it. I felt kind of more focused but it could have been a placebo effect I thought. I've been having some caffeine issues lately so I'm currently weening myself of coffee (just down to a cup a day of half caff) and was thinking about trying some sort of nootropic or ginko possibly. The caffeine causes me to be very anxious and impatient and I can be over aggressive sometimes because of it. That's obviously not good. You think the ginko is worth it when you need to focus for longer periods of time? What about long term use of it?

Yeah medicine is all a big experiment but we all have to accept some responsibility for it as well. Because like you said people don't want to have to give up the things they enjoy and no one wants to work hard for anything anymore. Everyone is looking for a shortcut now a days.. My mother is bipolar and also has liver problems so the medication she takes for depression is actually very bad for her. I tell her all the time how it's just a terrible shortcut and while medication may be necessary in some cases if people don't try to work out their issues on their own in more healthy ways the medication will cripple them inevitably.. There are so many healthier ways to deal with in her case depression than eating a bunch of pills. Likewise with your friends thyroid problems. I can see if making changes to your lifestyle just doesn't have the desired affects then turning to medication but it doesn't make sense to me not to first try the healthier alternatives.

I didn't know that about processed food but I'm not surprised.

Figaroo2 said:

Raise or just call turn?
Here I was caught between; just calling the turn and letting him fire again and raising to protect against a whole host of potentially difficult river cards.
What do people think is best on the turn. I have a feeling raising just made our hand face up, but couldn't we just as easily be doing this with draws?
Probably my sizing is too big.


Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25.63 (102.5 bb)
BB: $19.53 (78.1 bb)
UTG+1: $31.29 (125.2 bb)
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $9.65 (38.6 bb)
MP2: $24.51 (98 bb)
MP3: $26.90 (107.6 bb) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 14, 3B: 8, AF: 4.0, Hands: 136
CO: $12.34 (49.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8♣ 8♦
4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, CO folds, Hero calls $0.75, SB folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) 8♠ 7♦ J♠ (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80, BB folds

Turn: ($5.95) A♦ (2 players)
MP3 bets $3.10, Hero raises to $9.04, MP3 folds

Results: $12.15 pot ($0.55 rake)
Final Board: 8♠ 7♦ J♠ A♦
MP3 mucked and lost (-$5.65 net)
Hero mucked 8♣ 8♦ and won $11.60 ($5.95 net)

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I like the raise but maybe it could have been a little smaller. It seems like he didn't have much of a hand here though and just decided to bet fold the ace. He's probabaly not folding flush draws and would probably at least be thinking about calling with a J because you both know the A is a good card to bluff. The main reason I like it is because when the flush draws come in it's so hard to get a good bet in on the river. I don't think your hand is face up, I would put you on two pair or a draw more than a set of 8's. NH


I took a different line here. Normally I would just bet the flop and it would have save me several bb's in this case.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+2: 98.54 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
CO: 44 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: 39.9 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 73.1 BB (VPIP: 36.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 25)
Hero (BB): 98.5 BB
UTG: 130.85 BB (VPIP: 12.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
UTG+1: 124.45 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 15)
MP: 199.43 BB (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 25)
MP+1: 49 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:heart: A:spade:

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 1 BB, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 7 BB

Flop: (19 BB, 2 players) K:club: Q:heart: K:heart:
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (19 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
SB bets 8 BB, Hero raises to 19 BB, SB raises to 30 BB, fold

SB wins 54.15 BB


Just reraise and GII on the flop? Does it make a difference that the board is paired?

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 109 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
Hero (MP+2): 97.55 BB
CO: 80.68 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BTN: 92 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 95.65 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 12)
BB: 52.5 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
UTG: 36.15 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG+1: 89.3 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
MP: 98.8 BB (VPIP: 8.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: 9:spade:

fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 4 BB, fold

Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) 4:spade: 5:heart: 5:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 8 BB, BB raises to 16 BB, Hero calls 8 BB

Turn: (43.5 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond:
BB raises to 31.5 BB and is all-in, fold

BB wins 41.35 BB

Aces2w1n said:

All about the money in the end

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Word.

So I'm working on something like this for you guys, all the way down to the river. I have it all sketched out, just need to implement it into this format. Is this going to be something helpful though?

This is interesting. Im finding it a little tough to look at and read at first but I think that it would undoubtedly be helpful as a baseline.

I've been finding my way into a lot of annoying spots today. Like this one! Maybe I could check the turn then call the river but this smells like JJ or 10 10. I guess it could have been a set as well idk.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BB: 123.01 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG+1: 58.27 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 9)
Hero (MP): 114.78 BB
MP+1: 286.36 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 9)
MP+2: 9.92 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
CO: 316.63 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BTN: 31.95 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: Q:diamond:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 3.5 BB, MP+1 calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (12 BB, 3 players) 5:club: K:club: 2:diamond:
UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, fold, UTG calls 6 BB

Turn: (24 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
UTG checks, Hero bets 14 BB, UTG raises to 89 BB and is all-in, fold

UTG wins 49.4 BB

John what does GS stand for??? Next to 2nd pair top right on chart??

or3o1990 said:

I've been finding my way into a lot of annoying spots today. Like this one! Maybe I could check the turn then call the river but this smells like JJ or 10 10. I guess it could have been a set as well idk.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BB: 123.01 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG+1: 58.27 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 9)
Hero (MP): 114.78 BB
MP+1: 286.36 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 9)
MP+2: 9.92 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
CO: 316.63 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
BTN: 31.95 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q<font color='black'>♠</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font>

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 3.5 BB, MP+1 calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (12 BB, 3 players) 5<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='black'>♣</font> 2<font color='red'>♦</font>
UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, fold, UTG calls 6 BB

Turn: (24 BB, 2 players) 9<font color='red'>♦</font>
UTG checks, Hero bets 14 BB, UTG raises to 89 BB and is all-in, fold

UTG wins 49.4 BB

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You should only b betting flop if u think ur villain will do calling mistakes with medium pairs or the nd paired hands.

Against a reg just check it and keep the pot low and draw value on river or induce bluff

Aces2w1n said:

John what does GS stand for??? Next to 2nd pair top right on chart??

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Gutshot... so any gutshot draw.

or3o1990 said:

This is interesting. Im finding it a little tough to look at and read at first but I think that it would undoubtedly be helpful as a baseline.

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I'm not sure of a better format, but I'm open to suggestions. I think it's something you start to kind of memorize after a bit. So it would only be a quick reference. But if there's a better way to format that, I'm all eyes.

You should only b betting flop if u think ur villain will do calling mistakes with medium pairs or the nd paired hands.

Against a reg just check it and keep the pot low and draw value on river or induce bluff

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I think there's some value to be had from pp's but I definetly could have slowed down and tried to get to showdown on this one.. I can't remember what I thought of the guy but I know I didn't have many hands on him.

I'm not sure of a better format, but I'm open to suggestions. I think it's something you start to kind of memorize after a bit. So it would only be a quick reference. But if there's a better way to format that, I'm all eyes.

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It's definitely good that was just my first impression. Looking at it now it's not too hard to read. I like the vids you've done and I think that if these were slides in a short video it would be excellent and very easily absorbed.

John A said:

Gutshot... so any gutshot draw.

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Okay very good ... I see what your doing I like it but wouldn't that be telling our opponent what type of hand we got?

Soon as we 3/4 or pot size we have a strong hand?... 1/2 means we are weak or have marginal holding at best.

Just seems exploitable.

Couldn't we just 2/3 bet everything and be unpredictable?

Treatment of depression
Separated by a psychologist -> antidepressants:
"If they are to be effective, people will be healed," he said in a TV program, and then he was dismissed of the Company. "The patient needs a professional person with whom to talk about first" My friend ate antidepressants decade without any result. Without medication and professional help of his quality of life improved.

T9 spades hand.
I think you played it right this time mainly because we have basically no fold equity against this short stack. Against most pairs under a 9 we are evens shoving the flop the thing that makes shoving +EV is the fold equity associated with the shove. Plus as you indicate the board is paired so he will have trips here a certain amount of the time.

QQ hand it's wa/wb. I would have checked behind on the turn and allow him to fire his full range on the end. I'm calling up to half pot on the end.

John I like the flow chart. I found it very easy to follow I agree with the bet sizing when we are against relative unknowns and fish. As aces points out against regs who have a couple of thousand hands on us then 60% pot all the time is better. But you know that of course....

I reviewed my bad session and came out of it quite relieved. I made one terrible misclick fold against a 97% whale which lost me half a buy in of my money but more often than not I'm stacking him.
I did lose a stack QQ v 43s on the 335 flop v a fish he put me all in on a 5 turn card. Tons of over pairs shoving there so not so bad. The 3rd buy in lost was getting just getting continually rivered I really only made 5-6 mistakes in 1400 hands so I'm feeling a bit more chipper this morning.

Aces2w1n said:

Okay very good ... I see what your doing I like it but wouldn't that be telling our opponent what type of hand we got?

Soon as we 3/4 or pot size we have a strong hand?... 1/2 means we are weak or have marginal holding at best.

Just seems exploitable.

Couldn't we just 2/3 bet everything and be unpredictable?

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I don't know... maybe try it out and see what happens? You'll be amazed at how many poker meme's you've read and followed that were incorrect.

But yes, if you're playing at higher stakes vs good opponents, you'll want to alter this more, and / or bet 2/3rds more consistently. If you have regs w/ lots of hands on you, then you can change this up. But against most opponents at your stakes and especially fish, you can do this consistently and get away with it.

or3o1990 said:

It's definitely good that was just my first impression. Looking at it now it's not too hard to read. I like the vids you've done and I think that if these were slides in a short video it would be excellent and very easily absorbed.

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No plan to do a video on it. Just a document with maybe a street by street notecard type cutout that you can use as a guide at first. Thanks for the feedback.

hutzpaf said:

Treatment of depression
Separated by a psychologist -> antidepressants:
"If they are to be effective, people will be healed," he said in a TV program, and then he was dismissed of the Company. "The patient needs a professional person with whom to talk about first" My friend ate antidepressants decade without any result. Without medication and professional help of his quality of life improved.

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It's always easier to avoid cause. But eventually, when you suffer enough, you need to come to a cross roads about your pain. Which is more painful, to continue doing what you're doing, or to examine yourself and your past?

John A said:

The FDA just came out with another announcement this week. Processed meats are more cancerous than smoking cigarettes. Uhhh, no shit Sherlock.

It just pisses me off that we waste all this money on cancer research (although recent break throughs are pretty awesome), and wearing pink ribbons and all this crud, and all we need to do is get rid of all the sugary, over processed, preservative laden toxins out of our food. That's the damn cause of 98% of all this medical misery going on.

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+1000 Been saying for years that Bacon and other processed meats is really bad for although it sures tastes good. (mentioned on News here yesterday that bacon can be worse than cigarettes)

But sugar and processed crap are definitely causing the majority of health problems, because they are cheap to make for the manufacturers and they are the ones the supermarkets always have the Buy One Get one Free.

They even talking about a sugar Tax but the poorer famlies will suffer as they are the ones on a budget and have to look for offers so end up buying all the crap

anyway enough about the bacon butties MMMMM i'm hungry now.

Back to business, Like the chart to give you standard default lines when things are going wrong.

Sometimes you read book watch videos, read strategy articles - some are really good, some are ok then some are awful. Think the key is to separate the good from the bad and study those.

My main problem stems from so much information to process and alot of conflicting advice, then when playing you get to certain situations and your mind goes blank. Im waiting for that eureka moment where all the pieces of the jigsaw in my subconscious suddenly start to piece together

Ideally Id have bulleted pointed topics to go over and over and over and over etc to ingrain them so majority of situations are default but can change at will depending on players/dynamics/position etc.

Some people will say its a fixed robotic strategy but its just a default line to go to when things start to wrong and can stay there till your confidence and possibly bankroll increases and as already mentioned you can change at will when a good situation arises.

I mainly watch split suit videos and readup on concepts sometimes.. but analyzing and playing is thd bulk of it now.

When i lose or hate poker ill spend more time reading

rhombus said:

anyway enough about the bacon butties MMMMM i'm hungry now.

Back to business, Like the chart to give you standard default lines when things are going wrong.

Sometimes you read book watch videos, read strategy articles - some are really good, some are ok then some are awful. Think the key is to separate the good from the bad and study those.

My main problem stems from so much information to process and alot of conflicting advice, then when playing you get to certain situations and your mind goes blank. Im waiting for that eureka moment where all the pieces of the jigsaw in my subconscious suddenly start to piece together

Ideally Id have bulleted pointed topics to go over and over and over and over etc to ingrain them so majority of situations are default but can change at will depending on players/dynamics/position etc.

Some people will say its a fixed robotic strategy but its just a default line to go to when things start to wrong and can stay there till your confidence and possibly bankroll increases and as already mentioned you can change at will when a good situation arises.

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Totally understand. And there is a lot of bad advice out there. A LOT. So I understand how and why it's hard to sort through to find the good stuff. I'm going to be adding some content to Polished Poker including the below completed default lines. Which, these are the same as starting hand charts. They are general guides in case you're stuck and not sure what to do. But they shouldn't always be followed.