Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

John A · Nov 2, 2015

I'm still going over and reviewing it in my head. I'm not the biggest fan of these kinds of charts. But I do think it will help get some people get on the right track. Let me know your thoughts...

rhombus · Nov 2, 2015

PS nice chart again

although since you started posting them ive been running like S4ite LOL

1 Last hand Did I play it bad or am i just been hit by the variance truck constantly?
Vilain Stats 21/17 Ag 1.4 3B 13.9 hands 178 ( no idea why he didnt reraise the river)
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $4.79 (95.8 bb)
BB: $5.39 (107.8 bb)
UTG: $4.41 (88.2 bb)
MP: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $5.52 (110.4 bb)
BTN: $3.94 (78.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.17, BTN calls $0.17, SB folds, BB calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.53) Q

8

3

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BTN folds, BB calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.33) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.05, BB calls $1.05

River: ($3.43) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.15, BB calls $2.15

Results: $7.73 pot ($0.32 rake)
Final Board: Q

8

3

2

J

BB showed 3

3

and won $7.41 ($3.64 net)
Hero showed K

K

and lost (-$3.77 net)

John A · Nov 2, 2015

rhombus said:
When I opened HEM, there was an update to leakbuster.

Last time I ran said I had about 50 leaks, this time says I have 4 leaks, 1 critical and 3 important but only the critical and 2 of the importants are showing.

Did you re-run a complete analysis? I'm wondering if the previous report is stuck. It seems highly unlikely you don't have some potential leaks too. I have like 19 myself.

John A · Nov 2, 2015

rhombus said:
PS nice chart again although since you started posting them ive been running like S4ite LOL

1 Last hand Did I play it bad or am i just been hit by the variance truck constantly?
Vilain Stats 21/17 Ag 1.4 3B 13.9 hands 178 ( no idea why he didnt reraise the river)
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $4.79 (95.8 bb)
BB: $5.39 (107.8 bb)
UTG: $4.41 (88.2 bb)
MP: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $5.52 (110.4 bb)
BTN: $3.94 (78.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.17, BTN calls $0.17, SB folds, BB calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.53) Q

8

3

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BTN folds, BB calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.33) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.05, BB calls $1.05

River: ($3.43) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.15, BB calls $2.15

Results: $7.73 pot ($0.32 rake)
Final Board: Q

8

3

2

J

BB showed 3

3

and won $7.41 ($3.64 net)
Hero showed K

K

and lost (-$3.77 net)

NH. What do you think you could or should have done differently?

rhombus · Nov 2, 2015

John A said:
Did you re-run a complete analysis? I'm wondering if the previous report is stuck. It seems highly unlikely you don't have some potential leaks too. I have like 19 myself.

Maybe Im better than you as I didn thave any potential leaks

I just clicked on Run Analysis and clicked on 6Max although it includes different levels 35K 2nlZoom 12K 5nlZoom some 15K 10nlZoom

I just ran same thing again and this time it looks better as a big popup came up saying im not a good player!! so looks ok now

rhombus · Nov 2, 2015

John A said:
NH. What do you think you could or should have done differently?

Nothing I thought I played it perfectly and put him on a stubborn TT, 99 or AQ, KQ although at same time he playd it perfect apart from not shoving river with his set

or3o1990 · Nov 2, 2015

always difficult when you have flops like that and you have Aces, only good side there isnt a flush draw. usually best way is try to get to showdown or try for thin value.

If you overshove with no flush draws you probably only get action from AK or a hand that has you crushed unless they are a maniac and looking at his stats you may get called by KJ KQ QJ.

I had similar hand with Aces earlier and wasnt sure what to do, although once the Ten hit turn I hoped he had King and maybe King Jack although once he min raised the turn that was probably my opportunity to get out or would that be too weak ???????? or maybe I could have checked back the turn for a cheaper showdown

I don't think I would check the turn. Might as well charge the K's and draws. I've become a fan of making a very healthy bet and if they decide to raise it giving up in these spots. Especially against the min reraise. It reeks of the nuts.

The guy I was playing was a whale and he was pretty bad. So I chose calling over 4betting but I don't think even a good player was folding in his spot. He very often has the best hand and has a lot of outs to the straight. Shoving the turn was a bit spewey in hindsight..

Aces2w1n · Nov 3, 2015

10nl atm min raises nuts reraises r air lol

That kk hand perhaps not much u can do except 2/3 bet to save money on dryboards which scream sets and 2 pairs??

We check river it cant b good... i cant see changing the way we play kk diff unless u just tightrn uo cuz mw pot on a dryboarf

rhombus · Nov 3, 2015

John A said:
I'm still going over and reviewing it in my head. I'm not the biggest fan of these kinds of charts. But I do think it will help get some people get on the right track. Let me know your thoughts...

Maybe the Flow chart could go Left to Right so easier to follow
i.e on the turn one of the options is Raised on Flop and the only Flop option for that is
TP+ OESD FD - 3/4 POT - If Reraised - 2 Pair(Not Top2), FD + OC, OESD - Call
Which then Check Calls up to 3/4 POT

2nd or 3rd Pair, GutShot, 2Overcards on Dry Boards ??? Assuming that means all of them, what about Wet Boards

TP+ OESD FD doesn't mention if in or out position

Only the left hand side when you whiff mentions if Wet/Dry and In or Out of Position

started a basic version following your MAP (obviously graphics isnt my strong point)

rhombus · Nov 3, 2015

then one with some arows

Figaroo2 · Nov 3, 2015

rhombus said:
Maybe Im better than you as I didn thave any potential leaks
I just clicked on Run Analysis and clicked on 6Max although it includes different levels 35K 2nlZoom 12K 5nlZoom some 15K 10nlZoom
I just ran same thing again and this time it looks better as a big popup came up saying im not a good player!! so looks ok now

Very funny Rhom made me smile.
Looking at your latest leak buster shows you have a few big leaks but not many little ones. This has to be encouraging, if you concentrate on the big leaks then seriously you are very close to crushing, all your game needs is those few tweaks.
Don't talk yourself down you have the understanding to be really good.
I would suggest you move away from zoom where reads are limited and move towards games where you can use that deeper understanding by using the HUD to profile better. I think you would call less 3bets and call or raise them more appropriately when you have a few hundred hands on the villains. You also get that better feel as to how passive or aggressive players are so you can adjust properly.
I note in some of the hands you have posted recently you have run into AA. This is my issue with zoom as you never really know if you are up against a nit waiting for premium. Whereas you can choose to table select to a fish if you really want to.

John A · Nov 3, 2015

rhombus said:
Maybe Im better than you as I didn thave any potential leaks

I just clicked on Run Analysis and clicked on 6Max although it includes different levels 35K 2nlZoom 12K 5nlZoom some 15K 10nlZoom

I just ran same thing again and this time it looks better as a big popup came up saying im not a good player!! so looks ok now

You are better than me.... at flow charts...

Your Leak Buster looks better though. We've talked about those critical leaks on here and so you know what they are, and it looks like you're adjusting them. So just keep that course and keep posting some stat updates and we'll continue to provide feedback and re-steering the course. It's looking much better overall though.

I didn't even notice the developer put you suck graphics in there. How did he sneak those in there?

John A · Nov 3, 2015

rhombus said:
Maybe the Flow chart could go Left to Right so easier to follow
i.e on the turn one of the options is Raised on Flop and the only Flop option for that is
TP+ OESD FD - 3/4 POT - If Reraised - 2 Pair(Not Top2), FD + OC, OESD - Call
Which then Check Calls up to 3/4 POT

2nd or 3rd Pair, GutShot, 2Overcards on Dry Boards ??? Assuming that means all of them, what about Wet Boards

Yes, I like what you did better. I don't think I've created a flow chart in over 20 years. So please... finish both of them. Or at least the first one here in red and yellow. I think it looks better.

As far as 2nd and 3rd pair, you're not betting them on coordinated boards. 2nd pair I would IP, but the essential element is that if it's not there then you're checking and or folding. I guess I can add that if it's not clear.
TP+ OESD FD doesn't mention if in or out position

I'd love to see your version finish the other way.

rhombus · Nov 3, 2015

Thanks for comments guys, definitley agree about the Zoom, main reason was for the sheer volume as I can 4table and play 1000 hands per hour which is far from playing optimal poker especially for me.

My aim when I restarted in August was to play 2nl, 5nl 10nl zoom then 10nl 6Max tables then 25nl 6Max

Key areas are 3Betting the right hands, cutting out alot of 3Bets from the blinds from Late position Stealers and not calling down light, either get out early or take initiative if I think they are full of it!!!

Aces2w1n · Nov 3, 2015

Against late postion stealers.

flatting with AJ+ works well. Often trap our opponents when their range is crushed against ours.

3betting OOP light is bad generally because we find ourselves in awkwards spots unless we hit the board hard and then we get paid off. 3betting light in general is probably something I struggle with unless I'm against a stealer/someone who folds too much but I guess that's the main reason?

Zoom bites cuz you don't get to choose your tables your at? But I guess when I'm tabling 24 at the sametime i'm not either? But you do remember players in their spots. But I seem to be fishing over a bigger area and can catch more.

2NL and 5NL often bet with strong hands. People play their cards

10NL totally plays different ... Find people bluff a lot more and people also make less mistakes in general post flop.

Figaroo2 · Nov 3, 2015

This is the sort of guy that are out there even at 25nl

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

Hero (SB): $25 (100 bb)
BB: $25.12 (100.5 bb)
UTG+1: $20.56 (82.2 bb) - VPIP: 92, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 3.5, Hands: 38
UTG+2: $32.64 (130.6 bb)
MP1: $26.80 (107.2 bb)
MP2: $7.95 (31.8 bb)
MP3: $38.04 (152.2 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $10 (40 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T:club: T:heart:
UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.65, BB folds

Flop: ($1.75) 2:diamond: 6:club: 9:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1, Hero raises to $2.25, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($8.75) 3:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $16.31 and is all-in, Hero calls $16.31

I reckon im at worst 60% fav here in play.

River: ($41.37) 4:club: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $41.37 pot ($1.86 rake)
Final Board: 2:diamond: 6:club: 9:club: 3:club: 4:club:
Hero showed T:club: T:heart: and won $39.51 ($18.95 net)
UTG+1 mucked A:diamond: J:diamond: and lost (-$20.56 net)

It can take you a long time to grind out 5 bi at 2nl zoom

Aces2w1n · Nov 4, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
This is the sort of guy that are out there even at 25nl

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

Hero (SB): $25 (100 bb)
BB: $25.12 (100.5 bb)
UTG+1: $20.56 (82.2 bb) - VPIP: 92, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 3.5, Hands: 38
UTG+2: $32.64 (130.6 bb)
MP1: $26.80 (107.2 bb)
MP2: $7.95 (31.8 bb)
MP3: $38.04 (152.2 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $10 (40 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T♣ T♥
UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.65, BB folds

Flop: ($1.75) 2♦ 6♣ 9♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1, Hero raises to $2.25, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($8.75) 3♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $16.31 and is all-in, Hero calls $16.31

I reckon im at worst 60% fav here in play.

River: ($41.37) 4♣ (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $41.37 pot ($1.86 rake)
Final Board: 2♦ 6♣ 9♣ 3♣ 4♣
Hero showed T♣ T♥ and won $39.51 ($18.95 net)
UTG+1 mucked A♦ J♦ and lost (-$20.56 net)

It can take you a long time to grind out 5 bi at 2nl zoom

Generally against those players the line i'll take is a 3bet *LARGE* and just aim to get it in even with 1 overpair we can be good.

And they are that bad they will also try bluffing at you and jamming making it all that easier.

Such a wide range beat these guys I was amazed when reading up on it. Especially when they play back at you preflop and gii. You can call a lot wider than usual.

Figaroo2 · Nov 4, 2015

Aces I agree with 3betting these players big is a good tactic. Here he is raising from utg with a pfr of 11 so I think he's at the stronger part of his range here and with TT I'd rather see a favourable flop before committing a lot of money into the hand. I actually didn't want to see the 4th flush card as there is a decent chance he shoves a higher club there.

Enjoyed the sweat last night with Dave and Mika. Shame about losing the all in AA v QQ to a spawny straight sort of took the shine off the session. Hopefully you got to grips with that 76/35 guy.

or3o1990 · Nov 4, 2015

Enjoyed the sweat last night with Dave and Mika. Shame about losing the all in AA v QQ to a spawny straight sort of took the shine off the session. Hopefully you got to grips with that 76/35 guy.

I wasn't able to figure that nutball out unfortunately. I enjoyed the session though, it was nice mixing it up with the 6max and HU game. I ended up down about $23 overall. I think I may have been a bit overly aggressive but all in all I was happy with most of my play.

The only hand I was unhappy with was this one. My HUD dissapeard I think because the guy had sat out so I thought he was unknown and I was uneasy because of his min reraise. But when his stats came back I saw he was loose and aggro. He also min reraised a pair of 4's with a 5 kicker a couple hands later. If I had it to do over I would have raised his min reraise very large and not folded I think.

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 191.12 BB (VPIP: 20.45, PFR: 7.95, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 89)
Hero (MP): 122.92 BB
CO: 129.36 BB (VPIP: 62.96, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 28)
BTN: 107.86 BB (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 10)
SB: 14.3 BB (VPIP: 51.02, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 49)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1.5 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 3 BB) Hero has K♦ K♠

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 8♠ Q♠ 6♥
Hero bets 6 BB, BTN raises to 12 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Turn: (35 BB, 2 players) 3♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 24 BB, Hero calls 24 BB

River: (83 BB, 2 players) A♥
Hero checks, BTN raises to 67.86 BB and is all-in, fold

BTN wins 78.9 BB

John A · Nov 4, 2015

or3o1990 said:
I wasn't able to figure that nutball out unfortunately. I enjoyed the session though, it was nice mixing it up with the 6max and HU game. I ended up down about $23 overall. I think I may have been a bit overly aggressive but all in all I was happy with most of my play.

The only hand I was unhappy with was this one. My HUD dissapeard I think because the guy had sat out so I thought he was unknown and I was uneasy because of his min reraise. But when his stats came back I saw he was loose and aggro. He also min reraised a pair of 4's with a 5 kicker a couple hands later. If I had it to do over I would have raised his min reraise very large and not folded I think.

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 191.12 BB (VPIP: 20.45, PFR: 7.95, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 89)
Hero (MP): 122.92 BB
CO: 129.36 BB (VPIP: 62.96, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 28)
BTN: 107.86 BB (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 10)
SB: 14.3 BB (VPIP: 51.02, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 49)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1.5 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 3 BB) Hero has K♦ K♠

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 8♠ Q♠ 6♥
Hero bets 6 BB, BTN raises to 12 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Turn: (35 BB, 2 players) 3♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 24 BB, Hero calls 24 BB

River: (83 BB, 2 players) A♥
Hero checks, BTN raises to 67.86 BB and is all-in, fold

BTN wins 78.9 BB

Sorry I couldn't make it yesterday guys. If I have some time that makes sense this week you guys can sweat me.

But yes, if he sat out, then his HUD will go away for a hand. But even so, I think you should be 3-betting the flop, and check jamming the turn.

rhombus · Nov 4, 2015

John A said:
Yes, I like what you did better. I don't think I've created a flow chart in over 20 years. So please... finish both of them. Or at least the first one here in red and yellow. I think it looks better.

As far as 2nd and 3rd pair, you're not betting them on coordinated boards. 2nd pair I would IP, but the essential element is that if it's not there then you're checking and or folding. I guess I can add that if it's not clear.
TP+ OESD FD doesn't mention if in or out position

I'd love to see your version finish the other way.

It starts to get quite complicated when you add the other options, i.e. IP/OOP If you bet and they Reraise or Call etc and certain options werent available or didnt follow on with your chart.

Then it starts to get really complicated when your hand changes on the turn, i.e. you whiff on flop but then pick up Gutshot or flushdraw and medicocre hands which then pick up 2 pair

Probably best to use method below to fill in the gaps before starting on the flow chart version

rhombus · Nov 4, 2015

ok think this is it for Whiff if hand improved on the Turn, If right I can probably convert to flowchart

or3o1990 · Nov 4, 2015

Sorry I couldn't make it yesterday guys. If I have some time that makes sense this week you guys can sweat me.

It's all good. That would be amazing!

But yes, if he sat out, then his HUD will go away for a hand. But even so, I think you should be 3-betting the flop, and check jamming the turn.

The min reraises really throw me unless I've seen what they're doing it with. But I agree, this was the only hand I played that I was really unhappy with overall.

I take this line sometimes mostly in 3b pots in position. My thought is that none of the better aces are going away and I don't expect many worse aces to still be sticking around. A lone J, KK and QQ aren't going to fire twice often and I'd rather try to hit my flush for cheap than bet flop, miss and shove turn. Both players in the pot with me were pretty solid. Thoughts?

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 122.8 BB
SB: 69.98 BB (VPIP: 44.07, PFR: 10.17, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 60)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 50.99 BB (VPIP: 21.31, PFR: 11.48, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 61)
UTG+1: 93.8 BB (VPIP: 8.20, PFR: 8.20, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 61)
MP: 58.58 BB (VPIP: 3.57, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
MP+1: 248.55 BB (VPIP: 21.31, PFR: 18.03, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 61)
MP+2: 292.8 BB (VPIP: 6.56, PFR: 4.92, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 61)
CO: 196 BB (VPIP: 40.98, PFR: 9.84, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 61)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:club: 8:club:

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 10.5 BB, CO calls 10.5 BB

Flop: (43.5 BB, 3 players) A:heart: J:club: 5:club:
MP+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: (43.5 BB, 3 players) 5:heart:
MP+1 bets 22.75 BB, fold, Hero calls 22.75 BB

River: (89 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
MP+1 bets 42.5 BB, fold

MP+1 wins 86 BB

Figaroo2 · Nov 4, 2015

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♣ 8♣
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 10.5 BB, CO calls 10.5 BB
Flop: (43.5 BB, 3 players) A♥ J♣ 5♣
MP+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

More than one way to play it but I'm probably betting the flop to keep control of the hand, I don't see why we should be giving up the initiative here with that much equity. We 3bet so the ace is supposed to hit our range. Plus if we do hit on the turn the pot will be bigger

, if he calls the flop he will likely check to us on the turn so we get to see the river for free.
What are you going to do if he pots the turn

or3o1990 · Nov 4, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♣ 8♣
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 10.5 BB, CO calls 10.5 BB
Flop: (43.5 BB, 3 players) A♥ J♣ 5♣
MP+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

More than one way to play it but I'm probably betting the flop to keep control of the hand, I don't see why we should be giving up the initiative here with that much equity. We 3bet so the ace is supposed to hit our range. Plus if we do hit on the turn the pot will be bigger , if he calls the flop he will likely check to us on the turn so we get to see the river for free.
What are you going to do if he pots the turn

I see what you mean about building the pot for sure. He had folded to like 4 3bets before this so I felt like he most likely had me out kicked here.

Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

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