Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

2 River Trees Number 1

Number 2

Figaroo2 said:

Having a lot of problems with this villain, who is just owning me.
Already in this session (90 hands) prior to this hand he has 3bet me 4 times all from the blinds and won every hand.
I folded the first two marginal hands and on the third occasion he 5 bet shoved from the SB over my 4 bet from MP with JJ when i decided to fight back, I folded. he is 10% 3bet from SB and 11% 3bet from the BB in 1300 hands. This was the first time I've ever seen him 5 bet shove on me.
I called the 4th 3bet with a big suited ace and 4 to an unhelpful flush came out and I had to fold the turn.
I did call him once from the BB and bluff raised the flop with air on a low board and he folded.
Here I decided to flat again in position. Perhaps a 4 bet for value, GII to a shove was in order here against his ranges. Its a big three bet and any 4 bet is pretty committal.
I really didn't know what to do on the turn here.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
BB: $26.40 (105.6 bb) 18/14/38 in 1400 hands
UTG+1: $29.30 (117.2 bb)
UTG+2: $30.28 (121.1 bb)
MP1: $28.28 (113.1 bb)
MP2: $52.37 (209.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $25.39 (101.6 bb)
CO: $26.67 (106.7 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K♥ A♠
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, BB raises to $3.10, MP1 folds, Hero calls $2.10

Flop: ($6.55) 3♥ J♠ K♠ (2 players)
BB bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50
I don't see much point in raising here and taking out his bluffs, the problem is we are back into that calling guessing game.

Turn: ($13.55) 6♥ (2 players)
BB bets $6.40
Hero??
Well we called the flop to keep in his bluffs which I would have expected him to check now if he was weak, but he is still firing happily away (he is aggressive and 52% turn cbet) . This card doesn't change anything.
He has likely tightened his range significantly against me but he could still have AK AA QQ JJ TT AQs KK in that sort of order, we have about 60% against that range so do we just call him down?

Click to expand...

dont 4bet JJ if it isn't in your gii range unless you have a very specific read on his flatting tendencies.

nothing wrong with the calling guessing game, call turn. call river. then we profit from his bluffs

John A said:

Cool... Thanks for those. They look great! I'll have to PM you about some coloring, and then hopefully we can include them in the updated Polished Poker. I'm going to add some pre-flop and post flop charts in there.

Click to expand...

Maybe 3betting ones I suck at those LOL

PS regarding the colours as long as it red green blue yellow orange etc i can figure those out or ask my daughter. Its when you use the arty farty turquoise , beige, maroon etc

Hand 1 - Guess I folded 1 street too late
Hand 2 - Bearing in mind Hand 1 Is this abit Nitty OOP to check the river or Would it be better long term +EV to Bet FOLD
Hand 3 at the time I was slightly tilted as was running into Nuts all the time as just been stacked twice with QQ 1st into KK and second into AA.
Only just noticed his stats on the replayer (4 Tabling Zoom doesn't help)even after after just 8 hands 57/14 AG0.3
WTF was i thinking lol. In general OOP once called on the flop especially as its draw heavy I'm assuming to go into showdown mode

Hand1
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.02 (100.4 bb)
BB: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG): $7.35 (147 bb)
MP: $5.47 (109.4 bb)
CO: $5.84 (116.8 bb) 15/3 AG 3.5 3B0.0 after 74 hands
BTN: $5.07 (101.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A Q
Hero raises to $0.15, MP folds, CO calls $0.15, BTN calls $0.15, SB calls $0.13, BB folds

Flop: ($0.65) 6 2 A (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.45) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, CO raises to $2.89, Hero calls $1.79

River: ($7.23) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.40 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $7.23 pot ($0.30 rake)
Final Board: 6 2 A 7 3
Hero mucked A Q and lost (-$3.44 net)
CO mucked and won $6.93 ($3.49 net)

Hand 2
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $7.30 (146 bb)
BB: $7 (140 bb)
UTG: $5.07 (101.4 bb)
MP: $5.37 (107.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $6.23 (124.6 bb)
BTN: $9.82 (196.4 bb) 23/16 AG 1.0 3B 4.0 after 70 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 8 7 K (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.87) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, BTN calls $0.65

River: ($2.17) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks

Hand 3
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players


SB: $7.94 (158.8 bb)
BB: $9.20 (184 bb)
UTG: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (MP): $5.15 (103 bb)
CO: $6.38 (127.6 bb)
BTN: $9.38 (187.6 bb) 57/14 AG 0.3 3B 0.0 8 Hands

Preflop: Hero is MP with K A
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.15, CO folds, BTN calls $0.15, SB folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) Q K 9 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, BB folds

Turn: ($1.17) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, BTN calls $0.85

River: ($2.87) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.65, BTN raises to $7.70, Hero calls $2.15 and is all-in

Results: $10.47 pot ($0.43 rake)
Final Board: Q K 9 9 2
Hero showed K A and lost (-$5.15 net)
BTN showed Q Q and won $10.04 ($4.89 net)

rhombus said:

just doing the River Actions

1) When it says OP Leads? YES - Im assuming that means you are in Position
2) When it Says OP Leads? NO - Does that mean you are OOP or villain checked to you

In Pic below it says OP Leads out and one of options is All ELSE C/F , think must be under when OP doesnt lead as you cant check fold if Villain Leads

Click to expand...

Correct... and c/f is to cover when they don't lead. I can try and make it more clear though. Thanks!

Fyi, I should be available to sweat today for those who want to jump on a call.

John A said:

Correct... and c/f is to cover when they don't lead. I can try and make it more clear though. Thanks!

Fyi, I should be available to sweat today for those who want to jump on a call.

Click to expand...

Ok based on C/F when they don't lead (check) amended previous flow chart I posted

Cool, thanks. They look good! I'm hoping these can act a backup guide, or a general learning tool for most post flop spots. There should be deviations from it as necessary, but it should work as a basic guideline.

John A said:

Cool, thanks. They look good! I'm hoping these can act a backup guide, or a general learning tool for most post flop spots. There should be deviations from it as necessary, but it should work as a basic guideline.

Click to expand...

Yup, good for a baseline and obviously change based on dynamics, gameflow, players etc. Abit like an ABC for Post Flop in a Chart (Id love to see a chart that actually solved the game - mayb enot enough paper in the world )

I've neutralised the colours and condensed them alittle bit and noticed couple of small errors so hopefully ok
2 charts for FLOP, Whiff and 1 which covers when you have a hand
1 chart for Turn and 1 for River

Hey everybody I just wanted to say hello and I'm back. I took a long break from poker but am back at it again working towards being a profitable player at 10nl. Today is the first day that I opened up Cards Chat to post a hand in the hand analyzer section and noticed you guys are still going strong and are now working on EV. Perfect timing for me because I'm doing my best to wrap my head around EV right now too! Sweet!!

My current goal is to play 5 hours minimum online and 1 free roll live tournament every 2 weeks. 4 weeks ago I finished third in the free roll so pretty happy with that. Should have placed 2nd because I had an opportunity early to take out second place but made a glaring mistake.

Cash online has been poor and I'm currently feeling a little bit like I'm in bizzaro world but hopefully that's going to change soon and with more knowledge of EV.

Anyway it's wanted to say hello. How many pages should I go back on the thread to start that EV section from the beginning?

Sorry about earlier guys! Im out in the sticks in Alabama doing a remodel with my brother and I have no wifi and barely any cell service. I was out looking for 4g when you all called. I was really looking forward to sweating you John but im sure ill have a chance again sometime. I wont be around for a few days but GL guys

Good way to end the session. No idea why you'd want to 2-bet/shove the flop w/ no history on someone w/ QQ... but... ok.

iPoker - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 84.35 BB (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 4.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
UTG: 145.45 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 14.55, 3Bet Preflop: 17.39, Hands: 57)
Hero (MP): 100.97 BB
CO: 321.68 BB (VPIP: 32.46, PFR: 24.56, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 123)
BTN: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 16.22, PFR: 10.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
SB: 103.73 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:heart: A:diamond:

fold, Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) 9:heart: 9:club: Q:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero raises to 23 BB, BB raises to 80.85 BB, Hero calls 57.85 BB

Turn: (169.2 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:

River: (169.2 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:

BB wins 166.2 BB

Welcome along Sneaky.
Post some hands that are causing you problems.

The QQ v AA hand, firstly why isn't he 3betting preflop? (cos hes fishy right)
To be fair to him if he's a weaker player and you re-raise his check raise how often does he think are you folding when you have 30bb already invested? Probably never, hes only thinking about his hand. you kept raising so hes happy to keep raising too.
He's not good enough to think you might have some bluffs on this board.

Only played 48 hands tonight before John kicked in for the sweat but darn it missed 4bb of value, left the guy with 41c. lol
I'm pretty bombproof here boated up and the 8 on the turn won't help him very often. So I checked this turn to let him catch up and hopefully hit his flush as I couldn't see what else he had really. But are we losing value most of the time by not charging him on the turn?

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $9.68 (96.8 bb) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 0.5, Hands: 12
BB: $1.70 (17 bb)
UTG+1: $8.25 (82.5 bb)
UTG+2: $13.54 (135.4 bb)
Hero (MP1): $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
MP3: $2 (20 bb)
CO: $13.39 (133.9 bb)
BTN: $11.35 (113.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A:spade: A:club:
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 4 folds, SB calls $0.35, 2 folds

Flop: ($1) Q:diamond: 8:club: A:diamond: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.50) 8:spade: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.50) 2:spade: (2 players)
SB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8.12, SB calls $5.62

Results: $18.74 pot ($0.93 rake)
Final Board: Q:diamond: 8:club: A:diamond: 8:spade: 2:spade:
SB showed 8:diamond: 7:diamond: and lost (-$9.27 net)
Hero showed A:spade: A:club: and won $17.81 ($8.54 net)

rhombus said:

Hand 1 - Guess I folded 1 street too late
Hand 2 - Bearing in mind Hand 1 Is this abit Nitty OOP to check the river or Would it be better long term +EV to Bet FOLD
Hand 3 at the time I was slightly tilted as was running into Nuts all the time as just been stacked twice with QQ 1st into KK and second into AA.
Only just noticed his stats on the replayer (4 Tabling Zoom doesn't help)even after after just 8 hands 57/14 AG0.3
WTF was i thinking lol. In general OOP once called on the flop especially as its draw heavy I'm assuming to go into showdown mode

Click to expand...

1/ yup i fold turn.
2/ i like a bet here, most good draws with a 6 raise earlier and KQ/KJs are squarely there, make it like 90c? don't expect many 6x in his range.
3/ id go bigger on turn and jam river based on his stats. like 1.07 and jam for about pot.

Figaroo2 said:

Only played 48 hands tonight before John kicked in for the sweat but darn it missed 4bb of value, left the guy with 41c. lol
I'm pretty bombproof here boated up and the 8 on the turn won't help him very often. So I checked this turn to let him catch up and hopefully hit his flush as I couldn't see what else he had really. But are we losing value most of the time by not charging him on the turn?

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $9.68 (96.8 bb) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 0.5, Hands: 12
BB: $1.70 (17 bb)
UTG+1: $8.25 (82.5 bb)
UTG+2: $13.54 (135.4 bb)
Hero (MP1): $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
MP3: $2 (20 bb)
CO: $13.39 (133.9 bb)
BTN: $11.35 (113.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A<font color='black'>♠</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font>
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 4 folds, SB calls $0.35, 2 folds

Flop: ($1) Q<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♦</font> (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.50) 8<font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.50) 2<font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
SB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8.12, SB calls $5.62

Results: $18.74 pot ($0.93 rake)
Final Board: Q<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='black'>♠</font> 2<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB showed 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 7<font color='red'>♦</font> and lost (-$9.27 net)
Hero showed A<font color='black'>♠</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font> and won $17.81 ($8.54 net)

Click to expand...

If I'm checking a street its the flop first, really hard to get called by much when we block the board so hard. as played bet turn, 8x is there and a few Ax combos, flush draws will pay of a turn bet so waiting for them to connect is pointless, put the bet in now and then we get 2 bets at least when they hit and 1 when they whiff.

Sneaky Feet said:

Hey everybody I just wanted to say hello and I'm back. I took a long break from poker but am back at it again working towards being a profitable player at 10nl. Today is the first day that I opened up Cards Chat to post a hand in the hand analyzer section and noticed you guys are still going strong and are now working on EV. Perfect timing for me because I'm doing my best to wrap my head around EV right now too! Sweet!!

My current goal is to play 5 hours minimum online and 1 free roll live tournament every 2 weeks. 4 weeks ago I finished third in the free roll so pretty happy with that. Should have placed 2nd because I had an opportunity early to take out second place but made a glaring mistake.

Cash online has been poor and I'm currently feeling a little bit like I'm in bizzaro world but hopefully that's going to change soon and with more knowledge of EV.

Anyway it's wanted to say hello. How many pages should I go back on the thread to start that EV section from the beginning?

Click to expand...

Welcome back! Jump right back in. Those are some good goals to start.

duggs said:

dont 4bet JJ if it isn't in your gii range unless you have a very specific read on his flatting tendencies.

nothing wrong with the calling guessing game, call turn. call river. then we profit from his bluffs

Click to expand...

Hey duggs, glad you're jumping in.

I talk a lot about check / guessing, which you want to avoid doing. Check / calling, and understanding someone's range, is different than check / guessing. The reason I talk about this for guys playing ~10nl and under is because a lot of them struggle w/ understanding range in a lot of spots. So they are literally check / guessing, instead of check / understanding. And there's a big difference. So we talk a lot about taking control of the hand, and if you're unsure, but you don't want to fold, then bet / fold an amount you'd be comfortable calling for, instead of check / guessing.

I hope that makes more sense. Eventually we want to get to a point where we're check / calling and understanding how and when we open up someone's bluffing range, but we want to walk before we run.

How is your game coming along?

WOW that was Awful...capital A Not impressed.....
Min raise A7 from CO looks really weak. No cbet?

AQ float and very big over bet turn bluff? Smaller bet achieves the same in case opponent has a hand. He was opening from EP... save these moves for stealers and make them just over pot sized not as big as that.

A2 flat in the BB? Fold pre

7c5c flat call in SB? Fold pre just asking to be squeezed. Once in the hand just call on the turn with the nuts , why force out the in initial raiser? Allow him to stay in and get pot committed with that stack size. Massive value lost there from keeping in the initial raiser.

K8 all in bluff on the end? pot is only $4.80. Villain has $34 and could have hit the flush!...much smaller bet gets the job done with less risk. This was truly awful.

QJ call pot sized bet on flop and fold to a small reraise?.....just get it in on the flop against those stack sizes with FD, bdsd and two overs "Oh look I would have won that hand" lol

AQ raise the flop. bet 2/3rd pot on all turns

duggs said:

1/ yup i fold turn.
2/ i like a bet here, most good draws with a 6 raise earlier and KQ/KJs are squarely there, make it like 90c? don't expect many 6x in his range.
3/ id go bigger on turn and jam river based on his stats. like 1.07 and jam for about pot.

Click to expand...

agree with Hand1
Hand 2 with a 6?????
Hand3 Im assuming you meant in general and not against Mr Nit Bitch
Maybe you was looking at different hands for 2 and 3

rhombus said:

agree with Hand1
Hand 2 with a 6?????
Hand3 Im assuming you meant in general and not against Mr Nit Bitch
Maybe you was looking at different hands for 2 and 3

Click to expand...

Hand 2, misread the river card as putting 4 to a straight on the board, river is a very clear value bet.

Hand 3, definitely barrel and shove, look at his stats. he is anything but nitty over the first 9 hands he has vpip'd 6 of them.

John A said:

Hey duggs, glad you're jumping in.

I talk a lot about check / guessing, which you want to avoid doing. Check / calling, and understanding someone's range, is different than check / guessing. The reason I talk about this for guys playing ~10nl and under is because a lot of them struggle w/ understanding range in a lot of spots. So they are literally check / guessing, instead of check / understanding. And there's a big difference. So we talk a lot about taking control of the hand, and if you're unsure, but you don't want to fold, then bet / fold an amount you'd be comfortable calling for, instead of check / guessing.

I hope that makes more sense. Eventually we want to get to a point where we're check / calling and understanding how and when we open up someone's bluffing range, but we want to walk before we run.

How is your game coming along?

Click to expand...

I mean i understand why you would want to recommend it, but isnt it essentially a crutch? How else do you learn to evaluate the opponents range if not by playing check/call appropriately. Im kind of concerned that many times where turn and river play of x/c x/f are going to be a better default line than r/f.

The crutch i prefer to use is figuring out where i sit in my range, If its one of the worst hands I can get there with, good for him he wins the pot, if its pretty much the top part of my hand range, then im not going to fold it without exploitive reasons.

but more to the example hands Fig mentioned, regarding the AK hand where you talk of shoving the turn, if we are comfortable stacking v an admittedly aggressive opponent isnt it preferable to just call turn and call all rivers (draws RIOing us is a valid point against this line admittedly).

Im probably a bit rusty, play time is sporadic which I really have no excuses for. Still love the game, but after so many deep hands i feel lost with 'only 100bb' at times and other times it feels very dull. problem is deep tables dont always run as many as i would prefer. I do love analysis still tho.

duggs said:

Hand 2, misread the river card as putting 4 to a straight on the board, river is a very clear value bet.

Hand 3, definitely barrel and shove, look at his stats. he is anything but nitty over the first 9 hands he has vpip'd 6 of them.

Click to expand...

ok thanks, I was more concerned about the Ag of 0.3 - plays alot of hands but passively on flop although only small sample

rhombus said:

ok thanks, I was more concerned about the Ag of 0.3 - plays alot of hands but passively on flop although only small sample

Click to expand...

but that makes sense doesnt it, he is taking half the deck to the flop so far, it makes sense he flops alot of weak hands and plays them passively. passively playing preflop is also strongly correlated with passive postflop play. if the turn card was a 4 or another blank i would be going for stacks with KJ/KT/K9 and thinking it not close fwiw. might even go thinner now that i think about it

2 QQ hands
Hand 1 occasionally Ill just shove preflop and hope to pick up a loose call from a tilty or over aggressive player especially as as alot of my 3bets seem to get folds especially when i have QQ KK or AA, ended up against wrong player

Hand 2 - Quite Deep 185BBs. Once it got to the turn I didnt know where I stood at all. If stacks were shorter may have been an idea to reraise his flop bet and pick off AJ, KJ TJ flush draws etc as he was quite aggressive
18/17 AG 3.0 3B9.2 after 179 hands

Hand 1
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.02 (100.4 bb)
BB: $6 (120 bb)
UTG: $3.53 (70.6 bb)
MP: $11.66 (233.2 bb)
CO: $6.91 (138.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $5 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q Q
2 folds, CO raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $5 and is all-in, SB calls $4.98, 2 folds

Flop: ($10.20) 7 2 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($10.20) 3 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($10.20) 9 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $10.20 pot ($0.42 rake)
Final Board: 7 2 8 3 9
SB showed K K and won $9.78 ($4.78 net)
Hero showed Q Q and lost (-$5 net)

Hand 2
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $8.74 (174.8 bb)
BB: $4.23 (84.6 bb)
UTG: $11.30 (226 bb)
MP: $9.36 (187.2 bb)
CO: $7.45 (149 bb)
BTN: $10.83 (216.6 bb)18/17 AG 3.0 3B9.2 after 179 hands

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q Q
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.41, BB folds, BTN calls $0.29

Flop: ($0.87) 7 8 J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.49, BTN raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.81

Turn: ($3.47) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.10, Hero calls $2.10

River: ($7.67) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $6.85, Hero folds

Results: $7.67 pot ($0.32 rake)
Final Board: 7 8 J 7 6
Hero mucked Q Q and lost (-$3.81 net)
BTN mucked and won $7.35 ($3.54 net)