Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

  • Thread starter Thread starter John A
  • Start date Start date
Hope you all had a happy Christmas!

This guy had a high fold to c and 3 bets so I figured I'd go after him here. Anyone play it differently?

PokerStars - $2 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 114.5 BB (VPIP: 23.38, PFR: 6.49, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, hands: 77)
UTG: 102.68 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 4.76, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 21)
UTG+1: 159.93 BB (VPIP: 21.57, PFR: 13.73, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 103)
MP: 147.47 BB (VPIP: 35.29, PFR: 12.75, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, Hands: 105)
MP+1: 98 BB (VPIP: 10.34, PFR: 6.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
CO: 82.75 BB (VPIP: 18.03, PFR: 14.75, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 61)
BTN: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
Hero (SB): 129.15 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♥ 9♣

fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, CO raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 13 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 9 BB

Flop: (28 BB, 2 players) 4♥ 7♣ 9♥
Hero bets 16 BB, CO calls 16 BB

Turn: (60 BB, 2 players) Q♣
Hero checks, CO bets 30 BB, fold

CO wins 58.5 BB

I decided not to continue because I would likely be forced to call off the rest of his 83 bucks if he didn't fold.
 
Happy Christmas Dave
Apart from his fishy looking stack size the Cut Off stats are solid TAG (VPIP: 18.03, PFR: 14.75, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 61)

A PFR of 14 crushes K9 67%-33% equity and he has raised a limper so he may be stronger than usual for a CO open.
61 hands isn't a great number of hands on which to judge fold to C and 3bets it probably only one or two folds.
I'm folding pre here without even thinking about it.
 
Thanks Bruce. I gave him less credit pre because of the limper. He folded 4/4 times prior to a 3bet and idk how many times to c bet but I'd hadn't been splashing around and had yet to 3bet so I went for it.

Do you think I should double barrel here? My plan was to bet the flop and check fold turn because most everything he's sticking around on the flop with he's committed on the turn with too I think.

Would you consider 3betting here if it was suited?
 
Why would you give him less credit because of a limper? I'd be giving him more!. When you raise a limper you still have to consider that he might actually have a hand. If I'm stealing from the CO with no limpers prior to my action I can steal with a wider range than if there are no limpers.
With K9 you are effectively on a steal, once he calls the 3bet and cbet it's difficult to continue with him having so little behind. even if he's just sticky with TT or JJ we are still beat.
K9s can be in our polarised 3bet range certainly, prefer it to off suit. I hate K9 though always have.
 
I give less because the limper adds incentive for the CO to try to steal as well. It's probably opponent dependent. I know sometimes he actually has a hand and he probably did here. I probably should have left him be because he was so short. I hate calling with k9, don't mind raising it tho haha!
 
Figaroo2 said:
Why would you give him less credit because of a limper? I'd be giving him more!. When you raise a limper you still have to consider that he might actually have a hand. If I'm stealing from the CO with no limpers prior to my action I can steal with a wider range than if there are no limpers.
With K9 you are effectively on a steal, once he calls the 3bet and cbet it's difficult to continue with him having so little behind. even if he's just sticky with TT or JJ we are still beat.
K9s can be in our polarised 3bet range certainly, prefer it to off suit. I hate K9 though always have.
Click to expand...

Happy holidays everyone. I hope everyone has had a good holiday season so far!

He's correct, he should be giving him less credit for a hand. I would have thought you'd agree since we've talked about that in here. It's pretty standard that we know a reg will be ISOing wider to the limper. So Dave is correct.

And as far as the hand, if he's been folding before, then probably a good check/fold. I'd 3-bet just slightly larger though pre-flop next time. 14-15.
 
That sizing tell again

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
BB: $23.56 (94.2 bb)
UTG+1: $25.22 (100.9 bb)
UTG+2: $15.25 (61 bb)
MP1: $9.46 (37.8 bb)
MP2: $25.07 (100.3 bb)
Hero (MP3): $27.33 (109.3 bb)
CO: $25.75 (103 bb) - VPIP: 32, PFR: 19, 3B: 16, AF: 1.4, Hands: 62
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8♥ 8♣
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.60) 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ (3 players)
Hero bets $1.24, CO calls $1.24, BTN folds

Turn: ($5.08) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.63, Hero calls $3.63
The sizing got my hackles up and just looks like a "go away" bet
his range is too wide I decide to call him down on most rivers

River: ($12.34) 6♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Results: $12.34 pot ($0.56 rake)
Final Board: 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ 2♦ 6♣
Hero showed 8♥ 8♣ and won $11.78 ($6.16 net)
CO mucked K♥ Q♦ and lost (-$5.62 net)
 
What to do on the turn?
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

Hero (SB): $25.10 (100.4 bb)
BB: $28.73 (114.9 bb) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 2.7, Hands: 3834 decent
UTG+2: $31.32 (125.3 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $17.59 (70.4 bb)
MP3: $37.43 (149.7 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K:spade: K:club:
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, BB calls $1, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1

Flop: ($5) 8:diamond: T:diamond: 6:spade: (4 players)
Hero bets $2.39, BB raises to $5.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.86

Turn: ($15.50) Q:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $7.40,
Hero?

give up? Could he be drawing here.
 
John A said:
Happy holidays everyone. I hope everyone has had a good holiday season so far!

He's correct, he should be giving him less credit for a hand. I would have thought you'd agree since we've talked about that in here. It's pretty standard that we know a reg will be ISOing wider to the limper. So Dave is correct.

And as far as the hand, if he's been folding before, then probably a good check/fold. I'd 3-bet just slightly larger though pre-flop next time. 14-15.
Click to expand...

Sizing noted. I didn't like to c/f and a lot of the time I would have bet again and not folded but he had been so passive about it previously that I didn't think I was beating anything he could have except 88 and AK or a AJ hearts. Felt kind of gross to be folding but nothing I could do I guess.
 
What to do on the turn?
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

Hero (SB): $25.10 (100.4 bb)
BB: $28.73 (114.9 bb) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 2.7, Hands: 3834 decent
UTG+2: $31.32 (125.3 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $17.59 (70.4 bb)
MP3: $37.43 (149.7 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K♠ K♣
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, BB calls $1, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1

Flop: ($5) 8♦ T♦ 6♠ (4 players)
Hero bets $2.39, BB raises to $5.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.86

Turn: ($15.50) Q♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $7.40,
Hero?

give up? Could he be drawing here.
Click to expand...

He certainly could be drawing with that flop. His AF is kind of high, right? So maybe he plays his draws very aggressively but at the same time it is a 4-way flop and this flop would connect with those limping ranges. I think that if this was a draw that it would have had to be incredibly strong like j9d or the nut flush draw. . You are almost certainly going to be facing the remainder of his chips on the river. Good fold imo because does he play draws like this, maybe. but does he play two pairs, straights and sets like this, definitely.
 
Figaroo2 said:
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
BB: $23.56 (94.2 bb)
UTG+1: $25.22 (100.9 bb)
UTG+2: $15.25 (61 bb)
MP1: $9.46 (37.8 bb)
MP2: $25.07 (100.3 bb)
Hero (MP3): $27.33 (109.3 bb)
CO: $25.75 (103 bb) - VPIP: 32, PFR: 19, 3B: 16, AF: 1.4, Hands: 62
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8♥ 8♣
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.60) 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ (3 players)
Hero bets $1.24, CO calls $1.24, BTN folds

Turn: ($5.08) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.63, Hero calls $3.63
The sizing got my hackles up and just looks like a "go away" bet
his range is too wide I decide to call him down on most rivers

River: ($12.34) 6♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Results: $12.34 pot ($0.56 rake)
Final Board: 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ 2♦ 6♣
Hero showed 8♥ 8♣ and won $11.78 ($6.16 net)
CO mucked K♥ Q♦ and lost (-$5.62 net)
Click to expand...

Being out of position sucks, but I really like your line in this spot. Definitely a sizing tell and happens at low stakes very frequently
 
fishinthesea said:
Being out of position sucks, but I really like your line in this spot. Definitely a sizing tell and happens at low stakes very frequently
Click to expand...

isnt the sizing normal somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4, think its more to do with them firing on a blank when you check to them thats more suspicious
 
rhombus said:
isnt the sizing normal somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4, think its more to do with them firing on a blank when you check to them thats more suspicious
Click to expand...

I've been finding if they want a call its around half pot in this spot. He picked up a flush draw on the turn. When they bet this big they want you to fold. John pointed this out to me during a sweat and its turning out to be a reliable indicator
 
Figaroo2 said:
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25 (100 bb)
BB: $23.56 (94.2 bb)
UTG+1: $25.22 (100.9 bb)
UTG+2: $15.25 (61 bb)
MP1: $9.46 (37.8 bb)
MP2: $25.07 (100.3 bb)
Hero (MP3): $27.33 (109.3 bb)
CO: $25.75 (103 bb) - VPIP: 32, PFR: 19, 3B: 16, AF: 1.4, Hands: 62
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8♥ 8♣
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.60) 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ (3 players)
Hero bets $1.24, CO calls $1.24, BTN folds

Turn: ($5.08) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.63, Hero calls $3.63
The sizing got my hackles up and just looks like a "go away" bet
his range is too wide I decide to call him down on most rivers

River: ($12.34) 6♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Results: $12.34 pot ($0.56 rake)
Final Board: 9♣ 5♦ 2♥ 2♦ 6♣
Hero showed 8♥ 8♣ and won $11.78 ($6.16 net)
CO mucked K♥ Q♦ and lost (-$5.62 net)
Click to expand...

Paying attention to bet sizing to make a decision... nice! See betting, check /calling etc... this is how you get the most out of these hands. This is how you absorb variance, by playing these spots correctly and getting max value. Maybe you could have bet small to induce a raise even on the end. That's even more read dependent.

NH!
 
Alright... here's a spot guys that will happen a decent amount of the time. Are you betting or checking the turn and why? If you're betting, what sizing?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 98 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 143.22 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 117.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:diamond: Q:heart:

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) A:heart: 9:spade: 4:club:
CO checks, Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) Q:diamond:
CO checks,
 
John A said:
Alright... here's a spot guys that will happen a decent amount of the time. Are you betting or checking the turn and why? If you're betting, what sizing?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 98 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 143.22 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 117.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♦ Q♥

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) A♥ 9♠ 4♣
CO checks, Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) Q♦
CO checks,
Click to expand...


I'm checking the turn because it's unlikely he has a draw, he most likely has a pair. I don't think we're going to get 3streets if he does have a 9,4 or PP and I don't think he's ever folding an ace.
 
Last edited:
John A said:
Alright... here's a spot guys that will happen a decent amount of the time. Are you betting or checking the turn and why? If you're betting, what sizing?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 98 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 143.22 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 117.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♦ Q♥

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) A♥ 9♠ 4♣
CO checks, Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) Q♦
CO checks,
Click to expand...

You bet the flop as it hits your raising range, he called cos he knows you are full of $4it on dry board.

Based on now having showdown value and what you said in your previous post to Fig re Bet, Check/Call to reduce variance and get value and what will they call you maybe a raggy ace that wont fold to a bet, possibly 77 88, 9T.

I'd check as not alot of scary river cards and maybe thin value River on a brick.

As for bet size if you bet is it 1/2 as 2/3 to 3/4 pot is sizing tell to go away 😀
 
i Only like the play if you lead out the flop with a 1/2 pot as well. This could cause you to lose a lot of your stack though, idk if its +EV in a cash game raising the MP unless you do infact C-Bet afterwards.
 
John A said:
Alright... here's a spot guys that will happen a decent amount of the time. Are you betting or checking the turn and why? If you're betting, what sizing?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 98 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 143.22 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 117.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♦ Q♥

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) A♥ 9♠ 4♣
CO checks, Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) Q♦
CO checks,
Click to expand...

I think there are two options. With no real reads, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check hoping for showdown value and not too mention it would control the pot. However, I would just fire maybe a little less than half, mainly because he limped in the CO to create some pressure and check most blanks if checked to you because not only do you get too see his hand, we have decent showdown value and a size-able pot.
 
John A said:
Alright... here's a spot guys that will happen a decent amount of the time. Are you betting or checking the turn and why? If you're betting, what sizing?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 98.5 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 98 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 143.22 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 117.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♦ Q♥

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) A♥ 9♠ 4♣
CO checks, Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) Q♦
CO checks,
Click to expand...

PS maybe this could become a regular feature like John's QoD😀 or someone else post interesting spot or read of the day i.e. looking at someones bet then look at the HUD and see if it gives us a good read
 
rhombus said:
PS maybe this could become a regular feature like John's QoD😀 or someone else post interesting spot or read of the day i.e. looking at someones bet then look at the HUD and see if it gives us a good read
Click to expand...

+1
 
or3o1990 said:
I'm checking the turn because it's unlikely he has a draw, he most likely has a pair. I don't think we're going to get 3streets if he does have a 9,4 or PP and I don't think he's ever folding an ace.
Click to expand...

Ok, so let's say you check the turn. The River is a blank - say: 3c. Now your opponents bets 10bb into 22.5bb pot. Are you calling, folding, raising?

If you were to only call, what size would you be comfortable calling for?
 
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