Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 said:

Yeah that session went from bad to worse and lost 6bi at 20 & 25nl when on expected EV I should have lost 1.5 bi.....running turned bad very quickly. I won't post the bad beats nothing to learn there but I started tilting and shut down... I'm still a good quitter.
Feel crap though...I was building back up to 25nl and first session I get badly spanked and can't face playing now.

Click to expand...

Perhaps today is a good day for reflection then. Think about how far you've come and over your career how much you have learned. You're now at that point where you are ready to take on 25nl. That's a big step and you've earned it.

When I have a client that has an off day we have a reflection day. We look back at their programs, the notes that we've taken, how we have corrected postural misalignments and increased muscle and power to build a bigger, stronger, faster self.

Each movement that builds strength adds a little square to a new platform that we leap from. Every training drill, every meal, every rest day adds and adds and adds until that new platform that we built is strong and ready to be used. Then I remind them that this goal infront of them is not the ending but a new beginning. A fresh platform that is now ready because you've done the work and deserve the next level. Ya you're having a bad day but look where you came from and what you've done to get to this point. Be proud of where you're at and leap brother. Trust your platform.

Now go crush 25nl.

Sneaky Feet said:

Perhaps today is a good day for reflection then. Think about how far you've come and over your career how much you have learned. You're now at that point where you are ready to take on 25nl. That's a big step and you've earned it.

When I have a client that has an off day we have a reflection day. We look back at their programs, the notes that we've taken, how we have corrected postural misalignments and increased muscle and power to build a bigger, stronger, faster self.

Each movement that builds strength adds a little square to a new platform that we leap from. Every training drill, every meal, every rest day adds and adds and adds until that new platform that we built is strong and ready to be used. Then I remind them that this goal infront of them is not the ending but a new beginning. A fresh platform that is now ready because you've done the work and deserve the next level. Ya you're having a bad day but look where you came from and what you've done to get to this point. Be proud of where you're at and leap brother. Trust your platform. Now go crush 25nl.

Click to expand...

Hey Sneaky thanks for the pep talk.
If only it was that easy. I was playing 25nl from Sept 14 to Mar 15 and beat the level at around 7bb / 100bb over a good sample of 100K of hands. That is all well documented in my personal thread. I was well rolled at that point.
In April I had to withdraw most of my roll and started playing scared poker suddenly $25 was like a 10th of my BR. May and June were my first losing months since I bought HM2 at the end of 2012. Then in the summer work became brutal hours wise and July and August were write offs volume wise and I was playing tired not a good combo.
The last few months I've been restoring my roll at 10nl on 888. When I've dabbled back at 25nl FR on Stars there are now nova level and gold level players infesting who were not there last year. It's definitely harder. In fact a lot of the 25nl regs that I have a ton of hands on are cropping up on the 10nl Stars FR tables and those tables are also looking quite strong as well.

My goals for 2015 were to beat 25nl for $3000 and move up to 50nl but those aren't happening anytime soon. I'M going to have to decimate my roll again to pay for Christmas.
Confidence is a big part of poker and currently I don't have any when I play above 10nl.
We have talked a lot in this thread and that II thread about what is holding us back in poker. For me it's lack of aggression, when I try to play with more it often backfires on me instantly and gets me into spots where I don't know what to do. It's taken a full year to get my 3bet % from value only 2% to over 4%. I'm still not squeezing properly either. I'm probably better off staying lower stakes and continue to practice the skills outside of my comfort zone that I need to progress in the game.

Definitely being under rolled for a game is one of the biggest killers if you play scared.

Probably similar in a tournament when approching the bubble and the better players are exploiting the bubble and then go on to the final table and beyond whereas the shortstackers are holding on with their fingettips just to mincash.

So agree far better to go down a level to be in your comfort zone and not worry if you lose a buyin due to a bad beat and then compound that by losing another buyin because you realise you are playing too passive and over compensate, then get tilted cos you spewed so lose another and so on. (viscious circle)

Break the circle and play what level you feel comfortable at, although this on occasions can be bad for different reasons i.e. the money may not mean anything at $2nl. So find the balance where you are bankrolled and the money means a little.

For me I used to pay 25nl and 25 plo and am rolled for both through tournament cashes but at 25nl dont have the confidence in my game. Although the money doesn't mean much at 2nl and 5nl, I'm playing to improve and just to beat the game at xbb/100 and money is secondary

Guys I have to respectfully disagree with both of you. I understand that both of you are better than I am. So much better in fact that I can honestly say I don't have bad beats I just have bad play and lose because of it. But I'm here to learn and get better just like you.

You have both brought up the same comments regarding confidence and you have both brought up the fact that you "used" to play at 25nl and have a decent win rate. So what's changed? Has your knowledge deminished? Hell no! In fact it's grown. You're both better players today then you were when you were when winning at 25nl.

I have a list of people behind me that help me with my clients. If someone needs massage therapy, I've got a guy, if someone needs a physiotherapist, I've got a guy, if someone needs a chiropractor, I've got a guy. But most importantly is if someone needs to build confidence, I've got a guy. The mental game far out weighs anything that any of my other guys or myself can teach.

So Fig you say that there are more people from 25nl that you now see playing at 10nl. Why? Are they having the same issue? I bet they are. But what separates both of you from them? You both know that is confidence that is hindering your win rate. Not ability! So my suggestion to both of you is, get a guy! You come to Cardschat to learn how to play poker and to learn what your weakness is so that you can improve on them. For that John is one of your guys. You don't come here so you can be comfortable at the level your playing and continue to be exploited. Get out there and get a guy that's going to build your strength instead of letting those bastards continue to exploit you. Stay ahead of the curve. Use your win rate to pay for itself by fixing that mental game.

Sneaky Feet said:

Guys I have to respectfully disagree with both of you.
So Fig you say that there are more people from 25nl that you now see playing at 10nl. Why? Are they having the same issue? I bet they are.

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The games are tougher now than they have ever been, there is so much free training material out there that it isn't really surprising. As I pointed out there are players at 25nl now with Nova star status, a year ago you might have seen one or two gold star players but thats about all.
Confidence comes from winning and winning comes partly from being properly rolled and not scared to use your chips without the nuts.
I have been crushing the lower levels for the last two months and was feeling better about my game and my confidence has been rising, I was ready to take another shot at 25nl. If i'd run better this conversation probably wouldn't have started but I want to share my experiences with the group, its kind of therapy and others can see that someone with my apparent off table analysis skills isn't always crushing either. I'm a regular in this thread because its probably the best thread for learning I've ever found... (big nod of thanks to John A)

My stats at 6 max are soooo much better than previously. I'll post this hand from the sweat the other night with John. You can see I'm positively LAG.
John makes a read here that I'm just not on the same level to see.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $16.10 (161 bb)
BB: $19.13 (191.3 bb)
UTG: $14.47 (144.7 bb)
MP: $10.75 (107.5 bb)
CO: $13.40 (134 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J♠ J♦
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, Hero raises to $1.15, BB folds, BTN raises to $2.05, Hero calls $0.90

Flop: ($4.20) 8♥ 5♦ 4♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.15,
John nudges me, "reraise all in, bet sizing tell"
I'm like whaaaatttt whhyyyyy?
Hero raises to $14.05 and is all-in, BTN folds

Results: $10.50 pot ($0.52 rake)
Final Board: 8♥ 5♦ 4♥
Hero mucked J♠ J♦ and won $9.98 ($4.78 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$5.20 net)

So can you seen the sizing tell?

My hud is basically the hitman hud with a few variations. I have number of hands top right in blue, bottom row is EP% MP% Steal % and 4bet%

Thiiiiin value

Here is another hand from the sweat.
This time I'm going for thin value on the river, my previous coach would have liked this one. As its checked around twice clearly no one has an ace, we are probably getting called by a K (most likely in the SB) but also by other pairs. John didn't like this spot but I did.
Aggressive SB, interesting that his 3 bet raise misses this board. worthy of a note.
The BB flatted a 3bet so he likely has something like 99/TT/JJ.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $10 (100 bb) - VPIP: 34, PFR: 27, 3B: 9, AF: 4.3, Hands: 86
BB: $14.12 (141.2 bb) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 18, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 72
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $11.92 (119.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $11.95 (119.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q♠ Q♥
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $1.20, BB calls $1.10, Hero calls $0.90

Flop: ($3.60) A♠ K♣ 8♠ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.60) 8♥ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($3.60) A♥ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1, SB folds, BB calls $1

Results: $5.60 pot ($0.28 rake)
Final Board: A♠ K♣ 8♠ 8♥ A♥
SB mucked and lost (-$1.20 net)
BB showed T♠ T♥ and lost (-$2.20 net)
Hero showed Q♠ Q♥ and won $5.32 ($3.12 net)

Figaroo2 said:

The games are tougher now than they have ever been, there is so much free training material out there that it isn't really surprising. As I pointed out there are players at 25nl now with Nova star status, a year ago you might have seen one or two gold star players but thats about all.
Confidence comes from winning and winning comes partly from being properly rolled and not scared to use your chips without the nuts.
I have been crushing the lower levels for the last two months and was feeling better about my game and my confidence has been rising, I was ready to take another shot at 25nl. If i'd run better this conversation probably wouldn't have started but I want to share my experiences with the group, its kind of therapy and others can see that someone with my apparent off table analysis skills isn't always crushing either. I'm a regular in this thread because its probably the best thread for learning I've ever found... (big nod of thanks to John A)

My stats at 6 max are soooo much better than previously. I'll post this hand from the sweat the other night with John. You can see I'm positively LAG.
John makes a read here that I'm just not on the same level to see.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $16.10 (161 bb)
BB: $19.13 (191.3 bb)
UTG: $14.47 (144.7 bb)
MP: $10.75 (107.5 bb)
CO: $13.40 (134 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J♠ J♦
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, Hero raises to $1.15, BB folds, BTN raises to $2.05, Hero calls $0.90

Flop: ($4.20) 8♥ 5♦ 4♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.15,
John nudges me, "reraise all in, bet sizing tell"
I'm like whaaaatttt whhyyyyy?
Hero raises to $14.05 and is all-in, BTN folds

Results: $10.50 pot ($0.52 rake)
Final Board: 8♥ 5♦ 4♥
Hero mucked J♠ J♦ and won $9.98 ($4.78 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$5.20 net)

So can you seen the sizing tell?

My hud is basically the hitman hud with a few variations. I have number of hands top right in blue, bottom row is EP% MP% Steal % and 4bet%

Click to expand...

I'm going to guess that he's drawing to a flush but only because you asked the question. In the moment I'm sure I wouldn't see it. I'm going to be looking for it now though!

I don't disagree with you that games are tougher. Everyone that I know that plays says the same thing.

I'm glad that you're crushing lower and building your confidence, that's really all I'm trying to say. Build it how you can, where you can and you will succeed. I'm looking forward to and always appreciate the knowledge that you pass along in this and other threads. For poker, you guys are all my guys 😀

Group hug!!! Lol

Thought I would share this one. Probably the only time that I've squeezed correctly.

Highjack was loose fishy and trying to get a bit tricky as I'd been pushing the table around. Cut off was tighter and had been watching highjack getting more irritated and trying to change up. So.....


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

UTG ($5)
MP ($4.80)
CO ($5)
Hero (Button) ($7.94)
SB ($5)
BB ($5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J , K
1 fold, MP raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.72) 6 , K , 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.40, MP calls $1.40

Turn: ($4.52) 4 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($4.52) A (2 players)
MP bets $2.65 (All-In), Hero calls $2.65

Total pot: $9.82 | Rake: $0

I checked the turn for sizing figuring he had a mid pair or something. Maybe a higher kicker to a K

Sneaky Feet said:

You have both brought up the same comments regarding confidence and you have both brought up the fact that you "used" to play at 25nl and have a decent win rate. So what's changed? Has your knowledge deminished? Hell no! In fact it's grown. You're both better players today then you were when you were when winning at 25nl.

I have a list of people behind me that help me with my clients. If someone needs massage therapy, I've got a guy, if someone needs a physiotherapist, I've got a guy, if someone needs a chiropractor, I've got a guy. But most importantly is if someone needs to build confidence, I've got a guy. The mental game far out weighs anything that any of my other guys or myself can teach.

Click to expand...

I have confidence issues both in life (probably for most of it) and in poker and not an easy issue to fix, but I do get your point. Alot of the best players in the world have come and gone int he poker world mainly through the mental side and bankroll issues.

Ive noticed a few supernovas in the 10nl and 25nl games and as already mentioned the game has advanced so much in the last 10 years. Im sure the games we play now at 5nl 10nl and 25nl would have been crushing the $200nl games 10 years ago

I reckon basic ABC is only marginally breakeven at the micros, the key to poker success is the learning/adapting and keeping ahead of the evolution of the game

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $16.10 (161 bb)
BB: $19.13 (191.3 bb)
UTG: $14.47 (144.7 bb)
MP: $10.75 (107.5 bb)
CO: $13.40 (134 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J♠ J♦
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, Hero raises to $1.15, BB folds, BTN raises to $2.05, Hero calls $0.90

Flop: ($4.20) 8♥ 5♦ 4♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.15,
John nudges me, "reraise all in, bet sizing tell"
I'm like whaaaatttt whhyyyyy?
Hero raises to $14.05 and is all-in, BTN folds

Results: $10.50 pot ($0.52 rake)
Final Board: 8♥ 5♦ 4♥
Hero mucked J♠ J♦ and won $9.98 ($4.78 net)
BTN mucked and lost (-$5.20 net)

So can you seen the sizing tell?

My hud is basically the hitman hud with a few variations. I have number of hands top right in blue, bottom row is EP% MP% Steal % and 4bet%

Click to expand...

Only thing I can see is even if like WTF is he betting 75% of pot and folding with only $4.80 left when only 20% equity needed to call

John A said:

Cool... sit in on some of our sweats. Fig is getting a bunch of free coaching from me when he's the only one in there. lol

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Alright, I'm actually free, and open to sweats!!! Let me know when

So...... To ask perhaps a really stupid question.. Why are gold and super nova players playing such low limits? Wouldnt it make more sense that if you're a profitable player and play that many hands that you'd be playing higher stakes?

I'm not really sure how much someone who plays 25nl for a living is going to make in a year but I assume that hitting supernova status, you're playing pretty close to full time ya?

Sneaky Feet said:

So...... To ask perhaps a really stupid question.. Why are gold and super nova players playing such low limits? Wouldnt it make more sense that if you're a profitable player and play that many hands that you'd be playing higher stakes?

I'm not really sure how much someone who plays 25nl for a living is going to make in a year but I assume that hitting supernova status, you're playing pretty close to full time ya?

Click to expand...

If they can crush it for 10bb/100 playing zoom (I can usually play about 1000 per hour) then easy $25 an hour plus the points generated although thats about to stop with the supernova guys.

If they 16 - 24 table then not sure how many hands per hour

rhombus said:

Only thing I can see is even if like WTF is he betting 75% of pot and folding with only $4.80 left when only 20% equity needed to call

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Yeah and if he has AK even without a flush draw he has 26%, its a mistake to fold, but we don't mind.

Victor our recent sweats have been 2100 GMT on Tuesdays on Skype although we are looking at Google hangouts as a more stable platform once we get more people. If you are online I'll invite you into the sweat group call, you are still showing in my contact list.

Sneaky, $25 is a lot of money in a lot of places in the world and you can 24 table on Stars.
As it gets tougher then a lot of grinders might come down the levels to keep up a decent win rate.
What is needed for a new poker boom (new raft of fish) is for the USA gov to get its act together and legalize online poker. Whats happening in the US seems daft looking in from the UK...Land of the free,,,yeah right....

rhombus said:

If they can crush it for 10bb/100 playing zoom (I can usually play about 1000 per hour) then easy $25 an hour plus the points generated although thats about to stop with the supernova guys.

If they 16 - 24 table then not sure how many hands per hour

Click to expand...

Wow. That's an absurd number. Lol

Figaroo2 said:

Sneaky, $25 is a lot of money in a lot of places in the world and you can 24 table on Stars.
As it gets tougher then a lot of grinders might come down the levels to keep up a decent win rate. ..

Click to expand...

Good point. Here in canada 25 bucks will barely get you a cup of coffee!!!

...I'm kidding of course but I did recently go to a decent pub in Vancouver and paid 12 bucks for a Guinness. That was a little nuts.

Sneaky Feet said:

Wow. That's an absurd number. Lol

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just one example

Sneaky Feet said:

Good point. Here in Canada 25 bucks will barely get you a cup of coffee!!!

...I'm kidding of course but I did recently go to a decent pub in Vancouver and paid 12 bucks for a Guinness. That was a little nuts.

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ee'by gum when aw were a lad yu cud buy a house for 25 quid a few beers and still av change for bus fare home

fishinthesea said:

Alright, I'm actually free, and open to sweats!!! Let me know when

Click to expand...

Every Tuesday at 1:30pm PST. Sometimes the guys get together at additional different times during the week as well. I'd encourage it, and then both post and discuss hands you're in. We can break them down together.

rhombus said:

just one example

PokerStars Supernova Elite Kevin "WizardOfAhhs" Thurman Playing 24 Cash Tables - YouTube

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My question with these mass multi-tablers is always why? Why would you want to do that? I think I'd rather be on a factory line mindlessly attaching buttons on dolls for hours on end. Hehe... What people do for money. To each their own.

rhombus said:

Only thing I can see is even if like WTF is he betting 75% of pot and folding with only $4.80 left when only 20% equity needed to call

Click to expand...

I know, I thought he'd be calling with AT+ there, but apparently just pure bluff. Maybe 2To? lol

Figaroo2 said:

Yeah that session went from bad to worse and lost 6bi at 20 & 25nl when on expected EV I should have lost 1.5 bi.....running turned bad very quickly. I won't post the bad beats nothing to learn there but I started tilting and shut down... I'm still a good quitter.
Feel crap though...I was building back up to 25nl and first session I get badly spanked and can't face playing now.

Click to expand...

Yeah... at least have some solace in knowing you recognized that and shut down. Not much you can do when dudes are calling 4bets with 44 and flopping sets. I hate running bad. Back in the day, it was really hard to run bad for extended periods because there was so much bad play. You'd be able to make up for bad beats and things with just playing better in many spots. But now it's a lot easier to run bad because the knowledge gap is much more narrow.

Figaroo2 said:

Here is another hand from the sweat.
This time I'm going for thin value on the river, my previous coach would have liked this one. As its checked around twice clearly no one has an ace, we are probably getting called by a K (most likely in the SB) but also by other pairs. John didn't like this spot but I did.
Aggressive SB, interesting that his 3 bet raise misses this board. worthy of a note.
The BB flatted a 3bet so he likely has something like 99/TT/JJ.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $10 (100 bb) - VPIP: 34, PFR: 27, 3B: 9, AF: 4.3, Hands: 86
BB: $14.12 (141.2 bb) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 18, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 72
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $11.92 (119.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $11.95 (119.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q♠ Q♥
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $1.20, BB calls $1.10, Hero calls $0.90

Flop: ($3.60) A♠ K♣ 8♠ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.60) 8♥ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($3.60) A♥ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1, SB folds, BB calls $1

Results: $5.60 pot ($0.28 rake)
Final Board: A♠ K♣ 8♠ 8♥ A♥
SB mucked and lost (-$1.20 net)
BB showed T♠ T♥ and lost (-$2.20 net)
Hero showed Q♠ Q♥ and won $5.32 ($3.12 net)

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I said MW I'm not a fan there, but heads up we're VBing all day based on how the hand played. I like the sizing, as long as we don't have an aggressive opponent who can push us off our hand.

hmmmm, this is what happens when run bad starts, this in the first few hands since i last shut down

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25.53 (102.1 bb)
BB: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
UTG+1: $38.79 (155.2 bb)
UTG+2: $21.90 (87.6 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $9.03 (36.1 bb) Aggressive FISH
MP3: $30.41 (121.6 bb)
Hero (CO): $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $28.04 (112.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9:heart: 9:spade:
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.75, MP3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 9:diamond: J:heart: J:club: (2 players)
MP2 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.85) A:club: (2 players)
MP2 bets $2.10, Hero calls $2.10

River: ($8.05) 6:diamond: (2 players)
MP2 bets $5.18 and is all-in, Hero calls $5.18

Results: $18.41 pot ($0.83 rake)
Final Board: 9:diamond: J:heart: J:club: A:club: 6:diamond:
MP2 showed A:spade: A:diamond: and won $17.58 ($8.55 net)
Hero showed 9:heart: 9:spade: and lost (-$9.03 net)

At least I wasn't stacked. This is the sort of run bad that doesn't show on your ev either. I'm sat here specifically to target this player. And of course then he runs off.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $25.10 (100.4 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 9, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 127
Hero (MP): $27.81 (111.2 bb)
CO: $54.04 (216.2 bb)
BTN: $27.78 (111.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6:heart: 6:spade:
Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 9:club: 4:heart: 5:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.76, BB calls $0.76

Turn: ($3.12) Q:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($3.12) 6:club: (2 players)
BB bets $23.49 and is all-in, Hero folds..... back door set sent to tease me.....

[spoil]Results: $3.12 pot ($0.14 rake)
Final Board: 9:club: 4:heart: 5:diamond: Q:diamond: 6:club:
BB mucked and won $2.98 ($1.47 net)
Hero mucked 6:heart: 6:spade: and lost (-$1.51 net)

LOL like wtf is he doing. Must have been 78.