Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 · Feb 13, 2016

No Brainer said:
Calling a BTN raise from the blinds with low pairs is a bad idea against most people, even when we do hit our set it is hard to get paid off. As far as the cbet, what flops are your going to cbet if not this one?

Also, just because we are 3 bet bluffing doesn't mean we should automatically give up post flop. We should be looking for any spots we think are +EV and take them accordingly.

I would usually give up automatically on any flop with 2 Broadway cards in the low pair 3bet oop spot. Unless ive a note that he calls 3bets with small pairs.
We've talked about this several times. The problem is that these boards connect too well for a single cbet to work often enough. If the villain has any two broadways himself he either has at least a pair and backdoors or he has a gutshot to the nut straight which they normally always peel to.
AK top pair. AQ nut draw and an overcard. Aj 2nd pair overcard and backdoor straight draw. AT nut draw and overcard. KQ top pair and backdoor draw. Its just goes on right through all the Broadways.
So the boards to cbet are single Broadway and low raggedy flops. If you are going to cbet here a double barrel on a low card would be required but it's probably more ev oop to just give up straight away against anyone half decent. I'll see if I can run some filters on this to see how often a cbet worked for me in that spot.

or3o1990 · Feb 13, 2016

Well it does depend on the players tendencies. I think that at 100nl at bovada players fold too much to cbets. Against decent looking opponents I lean towards giving up on the flop. But while I do expect to get called on a flop like this more often I still think it's fine to bet it against weaker opponents. My plan is to fold to this reraise or if called give up.

John A · Feb 13, 2016

No Brainer said:
A couple of spots from today's session Both against same villain. He is 23/15, 46% agg over 240 hands, at the start of the day I had him labelled as a nit but after a few more hands changed to a half decent reg.

First hand I think he may have just been playing back at me, the only hands I see raising here are KJ, JJ, maybe AK? And JJ, AK may have even 4 bet pre given that it is BTN vs SB. Is there anything you can do in these spots except let it go?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
BB: $8.39 (83.9 bb)
UTG: $23.74 (237.4 bb)
MP: $10.70 (107 bb)
CO: $10.64 (106.4 bb)
BTN: $14.57 (145.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2

2

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.25, Hero raises to $0.90, BB folds, BTN calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.90) J

K

4

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.05, BTN raises to $2.75, Hero folds

Looking back at this next one I think 3 betting the turn may have been a better option. Since we basically commit ourselves by raising is shoving the best option?

As played can we call the river? Think I had about $9.20 behind. Also what if the river was a blank and he shoved?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.90 (139 bb)
BB: $7.53 (75.3 bb)
Hero (MP): $13.58 (135.8 bb)
CO: $34.72 (347.2 bb)
BTN: $10.51 (105.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

A

Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 6

7

8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.75) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, CO raises to $3.50, Hero calls $2.25

River: ($8.75) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $30.42 and is all-in, Hero

Hand 1 looks fine. Nh.

Hand 2, yes, 3-bet the turn every time. River you have to believe he was semi-bluffing his draw and not a combo straight draw that he missed. Considering his high aggression it's probably pretty close. I don't think it's huge EV call/fold honestly.

John A · Feb 13, 2016

Figaroo2 said:
yeah I did notice that and deliberately included it in the snip to see if you'd pick up on that.
You did tell Dave and I in a sweat recently that we needed to learn to hit flops better .

I'm glad you're applying the advice then. lol

I had a conversation with Alex Sutherland, the developer for GTO rangebuilder and someone who I think is a solid player, yesterday about that calling a small 3-bet scenario. He said something that made instant sense about why people think in those terms. I'll share more when I have a bit more time. Have to go run baseball practice for my son now.

rhombus · Feb 13, 2016

HUD wasnt working for ZOOM when I was playing but stats on replayer were
15/8 33AG% 14 hands
My Turn bet was to not give free cards to AK/AQ especialy with a diamond.
On River DO i bet Fold or Check Call??

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $8.55 (171 bb)
BB: $6.48 (129.6 bb)
UTG: $5.70 (114 bb)
Hero (MP): $6.19 (123.8 bb)
CO: $5.43 (108.6 bb)
BTN: $8.70 (174 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5

5

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.15, CO raises to $0.52, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.11) 4

9

6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($1.11) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, CO calls $0.70

River: ($2.51) 8

(2 players)
Hero ??????

Figaroo2 · Feb 13, 2016

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5

5

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.15, CO raises to $0.52, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.37

WHY are you calling this 3bet?? oop with a small pair against a relative unknown, we have no idea if he's raising light.
As played we have plenty of showdown value here.
He likely has an overpair or AK AQ that might check behind.
Id bet half pot, he won't be putting you on a 5!! If he shoves its a toughie I might have to call as AdAx can shove here thinking he might get paid by KK QQ JJ

TimovieMan · Feb 13, 2016

22: Contrary to what Aces says, I think this board is perfect for c-betting. Yes, it hits villain's range hard, but it hits our PF 3-betting range hard as well. Nh!

AA: I don't think you can fold here. I think he has a set or maybe A7. He doesn't have the flush since we have the Ah, and a flopped straight will raise the flop to make potential flush draws pay. 3-bet the turn, imo.

Aces2w1n · Feb 14, 2016

Its not about a good or bad board... u gotta set a ljmit to how much we cbet.. if we cbet too much we will get exploited and floated a ton and also check raised bluff

No Brainer · Feb 14, 2016

Aces2w1n said:
Its not about a good or bad board... u gotta set a ljmit to how much we cbet.. if we cbet too much we will get exploited and floated a ton and also check raised bluff

But that limit should really depend on a few major factors.

The flop texture
Our range
Villains Range
Our Image
Villains Tendancies

Probably more that I have missed but those are the major ones. We can't just say oh we have cbet too much this session so we won't cbet this one.

Aces2w1n · Feb 14, 2016

I didnt mean it like that.

But if you decide to cbet every hand cuz the boards great your going to get done. Cuz your going to be so wide.

Thinking players will start noticing and you will b predictable. Ppl will start check raising and floating

If the boards a good board to cbet ill check raise u x amount n know ill win majority even with bluff.. other times ill have u crushed.

Its just something to bare in mind

Figaroo2 · Feb 14, 2016

Aces2w1n said:
Its not about a good or bad board... u gotta set a ljmit to how much we cbet.. if we cbet too much we will get exploited and floated a ton and also check raised bluff[/QUOTE

22 This is a 3bet pot what do you think is calling here? I would suggest mainly 88+ with lots of high card combos in which case the board texture should be one of the most important things to consider in deciding whether to cbet along with how often he folds to cbets. How often we are cbetting does factor but I would suggest isn't as important as his cards here.

Aces2w1n · Feb 14, 2016

Arr yep agreed, perceived range always comes first.

theres other boards we cut out, and this aint one

... sry folks I was wrong!

No Brainer · Feb 15, 2016

Needed more time bank for this hand. Villain is 18/13, 10% 3bet, 1.8 agg over 250 hands. We tangled earlier in the session after I had raised his bb from the sb about 4 times in a row. He decided to play back and we got stacks in pre, he had AJs, I had AKs but ended up chopping it. Judging by that I do think he can be bluffing in this spot and there are so few combos of value hands he would be doing this with.

The plan for the river was to check/call as there are a lot of straight draws that missed and he may try to get more value if he spiked his K on the turn.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
BB: $8.57 (85.7 bb)
MP: $10.81 (108.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $12.56 (125.6 bb)
BTN: $10.30 (103 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9

K

MP folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 8

2

9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.75) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, BTN calls $1.10

River: ($3.95) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $8.40 and is all-in, Hero

When reviewing the hand I put him on the range below for shoving the river the river. I have removed the hands with showdown value that I think he would just check back. As I don't think he will do this every time would I just take some of the bluffs out of the range to weight it more towards value?

With the current range we are 88% but say if I take out all of the offsuit combos of QJ, QT, JT we move to 72% which I would say is more reasonable. Is that the correct way to work this out?

Figaroo2 · Feb 15, 2016

Nice call.
Apart from a set of 8's his value range is fairly limited because of our blockers and the 2 pairing on the end. There is a lot of JT and JQ here for the open ender and gutshot. I'm surprised he didn't raise you preflop. If he had AJ looks like the plan on the turn was always to float bluff. Make that note on this guy.

TimovieMan · Feb 15, 2016

We really only need to be good here 30% of the time for the call to be correct. Sure, he'll show up with 88 quite often (or even *gasp* AA), but I do feel that he's bluffing you a good % of the time with this kind of overbet. And there's a lot of JT/QT/QJ combos out there. Add to that your history with him in this session, and you might have him on tilt when HU with you.
Snap-call.

Figaroo2 · Feb 15, 2016

Anyone else used the new Snowie App yet on HM2?
I started the 15 day free trial today but it just keeps freezing it up (Not responding).
When it did eventually work (briefly and over too small a sample for my liking) said I was calling to much, betting too much and bluffing too much....so I guess I'm not checking enough?!
When I tried to extend the date range to a month its not responding
Not impressed so far.

John A · Feb 15, 2016

No Brainer said:
Needed more time bank for this hand. Villain is 18/13, 10% 3bet, 1.8 agg over 250 hands. We tangled earlier in the session after I had raised his bb from the sb about 4 times in a row. He decided to play back and we got stacks in pre, he had AJs, I had AKs but ended up chopping it. Judging by that I do think he can be bluffing in this spot and there are so few combos of value hands he would be doing this with.

The plan for the river was to check/call as there are a lot of straight draws that missed and he may try to get more value if he spiked his K on the turn.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
BB: $8.57 (85.7 bb)
MP: $10.81 (108.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $12.56 (125.6 bb)
BTN: $10.30 (103 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9

K

MP folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 8

2

9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.75) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, BTN calls $1.10

River: ($3.95) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $8.40 and is all-in, Hero

When reviewing the hand I put him on the range below for shoving the river the river. I have removed the hands with showdown value that I think he would just check back. As I don't think he will do this every time would I just take some of the bluffs out of the range to weight it more towards value?

With the current range we are 88% but say if I take out all of the offsuit combos of QJ, QT, JT we move to 72% which I would say is more reasonable. Is that the correct way to work this out?

Yeah, more or less. You can take a couple of his bluffing hands to weight his range (or just use a tool that can weight ranges like APD calc)

. But yeah, I think if he's going to maybe be a reg in your game I'd look him up considering your blockers here. It's def an ideal place to bluff, and his only chance to win is to shove on the end if he had a draw. 2 on the end eliminates 89 value hands though. But yeah, you worked it our pretty close to where you want to be.

John A · Feb 15, 2016

Figaroo2 said:
Anyone else used the new Snowie App yet on HM2?
I started the 15 day free trial today but it just keeps freezing it up (Not responding).
When it did eventually work (briefly and over too small a sample for my liking) said I was calling to much, betting too much and bluffing too much....so I guess I'm not checking enough?!
When I tried to extend the date range to a month its not responding
Not impressed so far.

Mmm... ugh... yeah. I wouldn't recommend this app for many reasons. But essentially yes, you'll be wanting to check more because it's trying to simulate some kind of balance that it's created based on... well, who the hell knows. The owners used to claim it played perfect GTO until they were called out on it, and HM partnered w/ them and told them to remove all that nonsense from their site and don't claim that anymore. So if a company is claiming that they are either lying or don't even know what they are selling. You don't know how they are constructing their strategy, so in a nutshell, it's just no ideal for micro / small stakes players to learn from if you don't know the intended strategy frequencies. Just my 2 cents. If you want to learn GTO, there are better options.

rhombus · Feb 15, 2016

John A said:
Mmm... ugh... yeah. I wouldn't recommend this app for many reasons. But essentially yes, you'll be wanting to check more because it's trying to simulate some kind of balance that it's created based on... well, who the hell knows. The owners used to claim it played perfect GTO until they were called out on it, and HM partnered w/ them and told them to remove all that nonsense from their site and don't claim that anymore. So if a company is claiming that they are either lying or don't even know what they are selling. You don't know how they are constructing their strategy, so in a nutshell, it's just no ideal for micro / small stakes players to learn from if you don't know the intended strategy frequencies. Just my 2 cents. If you want to learn GTO, there are better options.

Agree about the GTO not for the Micros. Only a novice at GTO but if you learnt GTO to prefection you would probably be costing yourself alot of $$$

Not sure at what level GTO would be useful to play, my guess when you run into Regulars all the time at $200 NL +

Even though I dont think it would be useful at the micros I do think it would be useful to learn.

rhombus · Feb 15, 2016

3 hands from tonight. 1st Hand got myself in a bit of a mess and had no idea on the Turn prob no idea on the flop either lol

Hands 2 and 3 Big draws

Hand 2 J9suited Do I CR the flop and as I do should I have slowed down on te turn or triple barrelleds if draw doesnt hit
Hand 3

Hand 1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.84 (68.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.92 (109.2 bb)
UTG: $10.36 (103.6 bb)
MP: $24.37 (243.7 bb) 27/18 40% AG 3B 20 13 Hands
CO: $14.71 (147.1 bb)
BTN: $10.69 (106.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

T

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.95, MP calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) 5

4

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.93, Hero raises to $2.30, MP calls $1.37

Turn: ($6.55) 7

(2 players)
Hero ??

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $14.88 (148.8 bb)
BB: $10.10 (101 bb) 40/20 ag33% 5hands
UTG: $12.15 (121.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $14.17 (141.7 bb)
CO: $15.76 (157.6 bb)
BTN: $17.60 (176 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

9

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) Q

T

2

(3 players)
BB bets $0.45, Hero raises to $1.35, CO folds, BB calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.65) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero ????????

Hand3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $12.78 (127.8 bb)
BB: $2.97 (29.7 bb)
UTG: $18.16 (181.6 bb)
MP: $16.84 (168.4 bb) 34/25 AG 34% 3B 5 115 Hands
CO: $12 (120 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

2

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.90, 2 folds, MP calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) K

5

8

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.10, MP calls $1.10

Turn: ($4.15) 5

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.80, MP calls $1.80

River: ($7.75) 3

(2 players)
MP bets $7.40, Hero folds

Results: $7.75 pot ($0.35 rake)
Final Board: K

5

8

5

3

MP mucked and won $7.40 ($3.60 net)
Hero mucked A

2

and lost (-$3.80 net)

Aces2w1n · Feb 15, 2016

TT why check raise... your looking to get value from Ak, draws etc.

When you check raise and he calls... your toast.
So your letting your opponent play prrfect with this line.

Leading out will allow ur opponents to flop and reassess our situation on turn

John A · Feb 15, 2016

rhombus said:
Agree about the GTO not for the Micros. Only a novice at GTO but if you learnt GTO to prefection you would probably be costing yourself alot of $$$

Not sure at what level GTO would be useful to play, my guess when you run into Regulars all the time at $200 NL +

Even though I dont think it would be useful at the micros I do think it would be useful to learn.

I think it's useful to learn, but snowie isn't GTO. Fact is we have no idea what it is.

But learning GTO strategy will make you a more thoughtful poker player, but in the scheme of things, there's more important things to learn first for micro players. You need to walk before you run. Just my opinion.

John A · Feb 15, 2016

rhombus said:
3 hands from tonight. 1st Hand got myself in a bit of a mess and had no idea on the Turn prob no idea on the flop either lol

Hands 2 and 3 Big draws

Hand 2 J9suited Do I CR the flop and as I do should I have slowed down on te turn or triple barrelleds if draw doesnt hit
Hand 3

Hand 1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.84 (68.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.92 (109.2 bb)
UTG: $10.36 (103.6 bb)
MP: $24.37 (243.7 bb) 27/18 40% AG 3B 20 13 Hands
CO: $14.71 (147.1 bb)
BTN: $10.69 (106.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

T

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.95, MP calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) 5

4

2

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.93, Hero raises to $2.30, MP calls $1.37

Turn: ($6.55) 7

(2 players)
Hero ??

If you don't have a plan for what you're doing on most blank turns, then you shouldn't be check-raising to begin with. I think you're better off just leading the flop or c/cing because he looks like he's likely aggressive and then just lead the turn. As played, I'd prefer a c/jam at this point because you CR so small he can still have Ax in his range any maybe think he can steal it. If you bet, he'll just fold this part of his range out now.

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $14.88 (148.8 bb)
BB: $10.10 (101 bb) 40/20 ag33% 5hands
UTG: $12.15 (121.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $14.17 (141.7 bb)
CO: $15.76 (157.6 bb)
BTN: $17.60 (176 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

9

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) Q

T

2

(3 players)
BB bets $0.45, Hero raises to $1.35, CO folds, BB calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.65) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero ????????

I'd assume you made a small raise to take control of the hand and take a free card if you wanted, so I'd stick with the plan. MW, if your opponent is calling that raise then he's likely not folding on the turn often enough to justify a bet.

Hand3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $12.78 (127.8 bb)
BB: $2.97 (29.7 bb)
UTG: $18.16 (181.6 bb)
MP: $16.84 (168.4 bb) 34/25 AG 34% 3B 5 115 Hands
CO: $12 (120 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

2

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.90, 2 folds, MP calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) K

5

8

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.10, MP calls $1.10

Turn: ($4.15) 5

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.80, MP calls $1.80

River: ($7.75) 3

(2 players)
MP bets $7.40, Hero folds

Results: $7.75 pot ($0.35 rake)
Final Board: K

5

8

5

3

MP mucked and won $7.40 ($3.60 net)
Hero mucked A

2

and lost (-$3.80 net)

If you're going to bet blank turns, then you need to bet it bigger to try and push out his mid pair and high mid pair hands. He's not going to fold anything out w/ that sizing. $3+ there because if he jams you're in a bad shape and can fold.

No Brainer · Feb 16, 2016

TimovieMan said:
We really only need to be good here 30% of the time for the call to be correct. Sure, he'll show up with 88 quite often (or even *gasp* AA), but I do feel that he's bluffing you a good % of the time with this kind of overbet. And there's a lot of JT/QT/QJ combos out there. Add to that your history with him in this session, and you might have him on tilt when HU with you.
Snap-call.

I am pretty sure it is more like 40%. 33% is when facing a pot sized bet as you are getting 2 to 1. This hand we need to call $8.40 to win $12.40 so approx 1.5 to 1 or 40%.

TimovieMan · Feb 16, 2016

No Brainer said:
I am pretty sure it is more like 40%. 33% is when facing a pot sized bet as you are getting 2 to 1. This hand we need to call $8.40 to win $12.40 so approx 1.5 to 1 or 40%.

You're absolutely right. My bad.
I could use more sleep.

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