Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

c betting

I've always appreciated how much c betting wins, don't think its a problem for me. You can see i've been experimenting with 4 bet bluffing from the button in these stats and my passive play in the blinds. Still too much limping going on, lots to work on.
Recently i've been paying much more attention to the flop texture before c betting and have probably reigned it in a bit recently. I use the delayed c bet a lot on the turn if they check behind me and a blank comes..seems to work plenty for me.

John,

I've seen your name all over CC and now I know why. Obv you are a valuable encyclopedia of poker knowledge, and you are a great soul for sharing what you know. I've just downloaded the book and it is my new bedtime reading.

Paws up to you for this.

so i downloaded the book and i registered on zion to start a blog but it seems like the last post was in 2012. Does anyone know if the site is still running or has traffic?

madball said:

so i downloaded the book and i registered on zion to start a blog but it seems like the last post was in 2012. Does anyone know if the site is still running or has traffic?

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Don't know much about traffic, but the courses offer awesome value, and are very very well structured.

I've also found that one of my biggest problems was not c-betting enough, and the Pokerzion roots course and John's ebook are helping me develop my game much better than any material i've read before. For the first time in my life, my non-showdown winnings became neutral/slightly winning and stable and my winrate increased. Both courses are really highly recommended, and John, thanks again for doing this!

Figaroo2 said:

I've always appreciated how much c betting wins, don't think its a problem for me. You can see i've been experimenting with 4 bet bluffing from the button in these stats and my passive play in the blinds. Still too much limping going on, lots to work on.
Recently i've been paying much more attention to the flop texture before c betting and have probably reigned it in a bit recently. I use the delayed c bet a lot on the turn if they check behind me and a blank comes..seems to work plenty for me.

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That's good that you're experimenting. So in your stat post, a couple of things should stand out. You're c-betting more from the SB than the button. Obviously the BB like I said, you'll have a tighter range and be c-betting more often. Also your c-bet success on the button is over 50%... it should tell you that you can be c-betting a lot more from there.

What's your normal c-bet sizing in and out of position?

BearPlay said:

John,

I've seen your name all over CC and now I know why. Obv you are a valuable encyclopedia of poker knowledge, and you are a great soul for sharing what you know. I've just downloaded the book and it is my new bedtime reading.

Paws up to you for this.

Click to expand...

Paw slap... you're welcome! Hope you enjoy it.

madball said:

so i downloaded the book and i registered on zion to start a blog but it seems like the last post was in 2012. Does anyone know if the site is still running or has traffic?

Click to expand...

If you mean blogs, ya not much blogging going on anymore. I think the novelty wore off. Still regular posting traffic, but mostly from subscribed members. It goes through waves and peaks. But it still stays active.

c-bet sizing

What's your normal c-bet sizing in and out of position?[/quote]

Depends on the opponent and whether or not I've hit my hand but generally 70-75% oop and 50-75% in position.
If I have a hand and they have a low fold to cbet i'll pump it up to full pot, high fold to cbet i'll bring it down to 50%.
Generally if i've missed I will cbet 70-75% on monotone flops or any rainbow and most flops with a Q K or A to represent.
Any flop with low cards I generally check and use the delayed cbet if another low card hits. I find nearly everyone calls one cbet on the low flop with over cards but then folds if another low card comes. Usually I will back alley mug any ace or king on the turn and play it agressively.
Where i'm reigning in my cbetting is the middling 8 9 10 flops where someone just called and i've missed. I'm also c betting much less once 3 or more are in the hand.
I feel I'm pretty strong at this small-ball type poker. My problem is that i will run up half a buy-in this way and then lose it all in one hand.
Comments noted re cbetting button and sb.
I'm still playing a lot of 5nl where there is the opportunity to limp cheaply from the sb regularly with connectors, there is no squeezing by the bb at all in micros. I can't seem to stop myself from seeing a flop with 45 suited. I know this is a leak unless I bluff the hand a bit more which is maybe why the flop cbet from the sb is high.

Ok, that's a good strategy and one I typically recommend.

Yeah, if you're getting pot stuck, then look for some patterns that you're over looking. If you're getting check min raised on the turn and staying in with one pair hands, etc... things like that can be avoided so you don't blow your winnings in those bigger pots. Remember, at micro stakes, when these guys start betting or raising they almost always have something. There's the nutballs in there, but you can sort them out pretty easy. So just make sure to listen to what your opponents are telling you. Believe them until they show they aren't to be believed.

Yeah, if you're getting pot stuck, then look for some patterns that you're over looking. Believe them until they show they aren't to be believed. [/quote]

Doesn't matter what you do if you run like I did tonight...

IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

CO: $3.48 (87 bb)
Hero (BB): $7.10 (177.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ac Ah
2 folds, CO calls $0.04, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.16, CO raises to $3.48 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.32

Flop: ($6.98) Qc 2s 5d (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: 9d
River: Ad

Final Board: Qc 2s 5d 9d Ad
CO showed 7d Kd and won $6.52 ($3.04 net)
Hero mucked Ac Ah and lost (-$3.48 net)

You have to laugh....

Well, if you get the money in good, that's all the matters. Those hand suck though when you lose. The main point being though is if you're losing big pots, there will tend to be a pattern in why you are. Usually you're not believing your opponent, or you are betting too thin, calling down too light, or bluffing in really bad spots, etc... or if you're really lucky, all of the above.

I think i'm falling into the non believer category then, as here is a typical example from this evening where i got stacked.

Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, Rush, 6 Players

Hero (UTG): $7.40 (148 bb) (again it had been going nicely 48bb up in 84 hands, lots of small steals)
MP: $6.19 (123.8 bb)
CO: $7.12 (142.4 bb)
No reads on either villian first hand with both.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9d Ad (this is the bottom of my opening range UTG , i fold this unsuited)
Hero raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.52) 9h Jd 5d (3 players) I have a good flop middle pair and nut flush draw
Hero bets $0.36, MP folds, CO calls $0.36
I put him on Jx maybe JT possibly JQ JK.
Turn: ($1.24) Qc Obviously I dont like this card but i'm going to double barrel to see if In can hit the river if called.
Hero bets $0.86, CO raises to $1.72, OK i think he has 2 pair, but odds to call. Hero calls $0.86

River: ($4.68) 9c gives me trip nines
Hero checks, CO bets $2.34, Hero raises to $5.17 and is all-in, (you know what, I don't know what i'm thinking here... still putting him on 2 pair I guess. in hindsight this just stinks, there is no fold equity now, I might as well have just shoved first myself,,, I put it in much to quickly without thinking) CO calls $2.55 and is all-in

Results: $14.46 pot ($0.72 rake)
Final Board: 9h Jd 5d Qc 9c
Hero showed 9d Ad and lost (-$7.12 net)
CO showed Kh Td and won $13.74 ($6.62 net)
I never even considered this hand. I've had a really bad weekend allround and am losing confidence.

Looking at this again he could easily have a set of 5 or J on the flop. It seems to be a case of not believing when they raise up the turn, it screams strength...Calling is ok to try and hit the flush a the board hasn't paired yet but the river play oh dear...
I don't know how many times I've read that if they are raising the turn they are looking to get it in... doh...

Ya, so the turn call is fine. You have odds like you said, but here's the key... at these stakes, once you get min raised on the turn (especially if it's a turn check min raise), you're looking at the nuts or close to it 99.385% of the time. Unless they are proving to be a random button clicker, this is generally the case.

So when you get to the river, what would the nuts or close to it be on the turn? I mean I didn't even look at the results at first, but I would have bet he has KT. You're going to have a slight possibility of QJ on this kind of board, but generally you're going to see KT or a badly played set. So what would be the highest EV line considering you don't have enough info on villain? Bet/fold the river. QJ is only calling at that point if you bet, and you'd have to make a disciplined fold because you won't have worse 9x's, and only boats and straights would shove at that point. CRAI would only be good against weak players, over agro players, etc...

I don't think this is a really bad example of being a non-believer. You have a good hand with some reasonable second best hands. It's more a question of how to win the most / lose the least in this kind of spot on the river.

"So what would be the highest EV line considering you don't have enough info on villain?"
As you say probably bet fold is maybe the best EV line here...some 2 pair hands will call.
However in my early poker days I read a lot of Harrington who advocated not betting medium strength hands on the river and just check calling when offered decent odds or where there is a decent chance they might be bluffing.
As such bet folding here is against what I have been doing on the river for some years now. It does feel conservative to do this and as a result I have recently been going for more thin value on the river but his raise on the turn would put me off betting the river in this hand.
I will admit I find playing the river by far the hardest street.

Figaroo2 said:

"So what would be the highest EV line considering you don't have enough info on villain?"
As you say probably bet fold is maybe the best EV line here...some 2 pair hands will call.
However in my early poker days I read a lot of Harrington who advocated not betting medium strength hands on the river and just check calling when offered decent odds or where there is a decent chance they might be bluffing.
As such bet folding here is against what I have been doing on the river for some years now. It does feel conservative to do this and as a result I have recently been going for more thin value on the river but his raise on the turn would put me off betting the river in this hand.
I will admit I find playing the river by far the hardest street.

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Yeah, I'd recommend purging that advice from your mind. It's not good at the stakes you're playing when players will call with worse so often, and check behind a lot. The only time you want to do that at your stakes is against maniacs and obvious missed draw boards where most of your opponents combos are draws versus made hands that can call.

Is this hand strong enough to squeeze from the BB?

Full Tilt, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, Rush, 6 Players

Hero (BB): $11.39 (227.8 bb)
BTN: $5.66 (113.2 bb) 10 hands 13/13/ag 0/3b 0
SB: $11.84 (236.8 bb) 26 hands 33/33/ag 4/ 3b 44 Pickup up on the high 3bet % here and decided to try a steal

Preflop: Hero is BB with Jd Qs
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.17, SB raises to $0.45, Hero raises to $1.20, BTN folds, SB calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.57) Qc 3d 3s (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.79, SB folds

Results: $2.57 pot ($0.12 rake)
Final Board: Qc 3d 3s
Hero mucked Jd Qs and won $2.45 ($1.25 net)
SB mucked and lost (-$1.20 net)

Yes, it's a good spot. NH. Now you're thinking and applying some useful info to maximize your situations. Good job.

One other note, since you're the only main person posting stuff in here right now. Your last positional screenshot you posted. I wanted to mention something earlier and forgot. I noticed that your BB PFR was only 5%. You'll want to make sure that you're not missing spots when you have fishy limpers, and especially if any regs limp behind that you don't raise some speculative but strong hands like A5s, KTo, etc... You want to try and get that hand heads up against the fishy player, get the stronger player out. Even if your out of position, it's good to get in a raised pot against these guys because they'll make a ton of mistakes.

So on to making you a better poker player.

We have point #1, which is make sure you're c-betting enough in position. Besides the BB, your highest c-bet % should be from the button and CO. Very simple point, but you'd be surprised how many people do not have this correct or are missing lots of value here.

#2 - Limit your cold calling out of position with trouble hands and speculative hands.

We've talked about this a bit already on here. I'd say out of over 100+ students I've had, about 99 of them have a significant leak here. It usually falls into two hand categories, so you'll want to check this yourself in your database.

It's either a trouble range like KTo-KQo/A9o-AJo/QTs/o-QJ, etc... OR

Offsuited and suited connectors, and other hands at the bottom of the range like K8s, etc... usually if it's the K8s type range it comes from cold calling in the BB for min raises and 1.5x raises. If you are losing more than -100bb/100 with those hands in those spots, it's a leak. It can become very costly long term, so you want to make sure you've checked this area, and you've isolated what kind of cold calling ranges and from what situations are causing you the most issues.

I had a student playing 50nl who was losing over -400bb/100 in the bb from these situations over a reasonable sample size. He had an overall winrate of ~ -1.2bb/100. We plugged this part up, now back over break even just like that. It's a miracle I tell you.

I posted some of these filters for the cold calling. I'll put together a couple of more and post as well. I'd advise everyone look over this though and post your results.

cold calling

We worked on my cold calling previously and I have reduced this massively.
So instead I thought I'd have a look at the hands with which I've lost the most big blinds.
Not surprised to see QT suited, I've previously made a couple of straight flushes with this hand, I know I play it too much and it looks like i'm three betting it too much as well. Having seen this I will cut down on the times I play most suited and 1 gap connectors, I'm clearly not winning enough in the long run playing these hands. I can't believe K9s is there, I never play that hand (well obviously i have but...you know everyone knows its a donks hand)
AK is there after a few bad beats and I notice I lost 6 times with sets of 222 both to oversets and bad boards where straights and flushes came.
I like the vpip stat here so you can actually see just how often you are playing these hands
Interesting that nearly all the hands here are suited..funny i never thought myself a flush chaser.....comments welcome

Nice that you're looking through those. I want to stay on topic about cold calling, but one quick note. Make sure you're adding VPIP in there, otherwise it's going to be hard to know what you're really losing value on. Also, in that kind of sample size, I wouldn't put stock on something too much unless it's showing a really large loss rate. You'd need about 5x that sample size to really approach any kind of significant conclusion.

FYI, there's a new download link for the polished poker book.

http://acepokersolutions.com/Free_poker_ebook.php

THANKS for the new download link. Once I get deep in a live tournament, I will make sure to give the appropriate credit. I'm at WPT BestBet Jacksonville giving it another go and grinding the cash games. I'm applying your teachings and things are going well. I have taken some nasty river hits and getting stacked but thoroughly convinced your aggressive style of play is indeed profitable.

sidgucci said:

THANKS for the new download link. Once I get deep in a live tournament, I will make sure to give the appropriate credit. I'm at WPT BestBet Jacksonville giving it another go and grinding the cash games. I'm applying your teachings and things are going well. I have taken some nasty river hits and getting stacked but thoroughly convinced your aggressive style of play is indeed profitable.

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I wish you much success. I've seen a ton of improvement in your thought process since you've been joining this discussion.

Aggression is pointless unless you know how to use it against your opponents to force them into poor decisions, and you know how to pick your spots. So focusing on how to do that effectively, and what that actually looks like is key.

My goal is to provide as many effective ideas and styles as I've learned while playing the last 9 years. I'm in a fairly interesting spot since I've played high stakes against top pros for many years, and I have no desire to do that presently. And not because I don't think I can win, every poker player believes they'll beat their opponent . I just have no desire to play live at high stakes, because I have a new family, and I've been down that road before. And I have no desire to play online and risk losing my poker bankroll again. So I have the odd added benefit of playing 100/200nl and can pass on how to beat those games and lower from a slightly higher strategy thinking perspective (meaning players at 600nl+ and thinking on multiple levels and you can't make many mistakes). My outlet has now become teaching, which is awesome because I get a new challenge on how to pass on what's in my head.

So we have points #1 and #2 and becoming a better player. I hope I can get a show of hands of people who will do #2. I will go back through here, or maybe someone else can re-post the cold calling links. I'd HIGHLY advise you get off your butt and do this if you haven't already. You want to know what range of hands you're having the most difficulty with, and I'll hold your hand to show you how to do this if I have to, but it's important to do.

I have some of the Poker Tracker Filters here. I put the HM2 ones in this thread, but we also want to do a modification to both of them as well.

http://pokerleakbuster.com/PokerTracker_Filters.html

So if you're reading this, do the OOP cold calling filters. I guarantee that if you isolate what part of this issue you're having the most difficulty with, ie, is it cold calling from the BB? Is it cold calling all of these trouble hands? Is it cold calling with the bottom of my range only? See this for yourself, correct it, and it will be and added 1-2bb/100 to your winrate (which is huge).

Hey Fellows! Thanks again John for doing this. I am trying to closely follow this thread. I am posting a few of my stats mainly for this month in which I played 11K hands so far . Hope I did it right and also hope that the sample size isn't wayyyy to small...

Cold Call with SC:


If you compare my CC Overall-Stats I think it becomes visible that I changed my style quiet a bit over the past few weeks. My overall stats are 19/14 for this month and before it was more like 26/19. Yes... a bit too much calling still.

CC Overall March 2014 (11k hands)


CC Alltime (31K Hands. In the time before this month I basically never played more than 1-2K hands/month)