Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

  • Thread starter Thread starter John A
  • Start date Start date
John, just an update. Since implementing your training my bank roll has started to grow quite consistently. In last night's session I pulled in 166% of my buy in. That was in about 45 minutes. Also, I don't want to anger the poker gods here but, every hand that I was in I won. I didnt muck or fold once.

I'd say your training is working! I just wanted to say thanks 🙂
 
Sneaky Feet said:
I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying about being able to gauge your opponents bluff range. If one is to 4-bet approximately 4% of the time regardless of position, how does one put the opponent on a bluff range?

By calling or re-raising and playing the hand out?
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Say X reg has 4% 3-bet.
I'm referring to common positional dynamics. A reg opens on the button, a reg in the BB 3-bets. The regs 4-betting range is going to be much wider in this dynamic than in other situations.

That's all I was referring to.
 
Sneaky Feet said:
John, just an update. Since implementing your training my bank roll has started to grow quite consistently. In last night's session I pulled in 166% of my buy in. That was in about 45 minutes. Also, I don't want to anger the poker gods here but, every hand that I was in I won. I didnt muck or fold once.

I'd say your training is working! I just wanted to say thanks 🙂
Click to expand...

Good to hear man. You put the work in, you're going to see the results. Congrats.

I love hearing the success stories. Got on in e-mail yesterday that was pretty impressive. Guy was a winning reg at ~ 2.5bb/100 and is now over 8bb/100 over 80k hands at 50nl. Always good to hear.

Do you guys understand what 4-bet range is in HM (I think PT has this too right?)?
 
John A said:
Say X reg has 4% 3-bet.
I'm referring to common positional dynamics. A reg opens on the button, a reg in the BB 3-bets. The regs 4-betting range is going to be much wider in this dynamic than in other situations.

That's all I was referring to.
Click to expand...


Understood thanks John.
 
John A said:
Good to hear man. You put the work in, you're going to see the results. Congrats.

I love hearing the success stories. Got on in e-mail yesterday that was pretty impressive. Guy was a winning reg at ~ 2.5bb/100 and is now over 8bb/100 over 80k hands at 50nl. Always good to hear.

Do you guys understand what 4-bet range is in HM (I think PT has this too right?)?
Click to expand...


4-bet range is understood.

I do have another question regarding my comment though. This may sound like a dumb question (don't worry I'm full of them) but since I didn't loose a hand that I played, can this mean that I'm still too tight? The table was very passive but I was a little surprised at winning every hand.
 
Sneaky Feet said:
4-bet range is understood.

I do have another question regarding my comment though. This may sound like a dumb question (don't worry I'm full of them) but since I didn't loose a hand that I played, can this mean that I'm still too tight? The table was very passive but I was a little surprised at winning every hand.
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Ok, just asking because I don't think most people actually understand it. I think they believe if 4-bet range is 4%, they think opponent is 4-betting 4% of their range, and that's not correct. It's actually a ratio of how often someone is opening their entire range at that position, by how often they 4-bet that range. So if someone opens 20% and their 4bet range is 4%, then they are 4-betting 8% of their entire range in that situation. So there's going to be a good amount of bluffs in that case.

To your other question, that's kind of impossible for me to answer. I don't know how often you were playing hands, or what other dynamics were going on. I'd say if you suspect that's the case, then there's probably some truth there, but I couldn't say for sure.
 
John A said:
Ok, just asking because I don't think most people actually understand it. I think they believe if 4-bet range is 4%, they think opponent is 4-betting 4% of their range, and that's not correct. It's actually a ratio of how often someone is opening their entire range at that position, by how often they 4-bet that range. So if someone opens 20% and their 4bet range is 4%, then they are 4-betting 8% of their entire range in that situation. So there's going to be a good amount of bluffs in that case.
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I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)
 
Fisi said:
I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)
Click to expand...

And I understood this differently as well. I thought it meant 4-betting your 20% opening range 4% of the time. So if you play your range 100 times, 4 times out of 100 one would 4-bet. This did seem a little off to me considering in 100 hands one should see even the top 6% of ones opening range more than 4 times in 100. Not a math guy myself either.
 
Fisi said:
I always tought that 4-bet range represents the actual range, so thanks for clearing that up! However, me not being a math guy at all, I find this kind of strange. Shouldn't their actual range in this example be 0,8%? (Actual 4-bet range: opening range x 4-bet range = 0,2% x 0,04% = 0,008?)
Click to expand...

That would be correct. I misspoke. It's 4-bet% X raise first in % = 4-bet range. So if someone is opening 35% from CO and their 4-bet% is 16, then 4-bet range for that position would = 5.6. Sorry for the confusion.
 
John A said:
That would be correct. I misspoke. It's 4-bet% X raise first in % = 4-bet range. So if someone is opening 35% from CO and their 4-bet% is 16, then 4-bet range for that position would = 5.6. Sorry for the confusion.
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OK, thanks! Anyways, Holdem' manager's popup displays the already calculated 4bet range by positions, since it's value is normally between 2 and 5 right? Also, how big of a sample do you need generally before you start making any 5-bet bluffs if you have no specific reads?
 
I've tried to 4-bet 4 times in the last couple days and it doesn't seem to be working too well for me. The first time villain folded, the next 2 times I was shoved on and had to fold out. The last time which just happened I got beaten on the river. Not having a lot of fun with 4betting currently.
 
Here's the my last attempt at a 4bet. Should I have shoved on the flop? I'm not really sure what my way out was. I had a feeling he at least had AK or AQ +.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($2.51)
BB ($1.60)
UTG ($2.15)
UTG+1 ($4.39)
MP1 ($1.30)
MP2 ($2.14)
Hero (CO) ($1.75)
Button ($2.37)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8
diamond.gif
, K
diamond.gif

4 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, Button raises to $0.18, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, Button calls $0.22

Flop: ($0.83) 6
diamond.gif
, K
club.gif
, 8
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, Button calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.47) Q
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.03 (All-In), Button calls $1.03

River: ($3.53) 6
spade.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.53 | Rake: $0.12

Results below:
Button had A
diamond.gif
, A
spade.gif
(two pair, Aces and sixes).
Hero had 8
diamond.gif
, K
diamond.gif
(two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: Button won $3.41
 
Fisi said:
OK, thanks! Anyways, Holdem' manager's popup displays the already calculated 4bet range by positions, since it's value is normally between 2 and 5 right? Also, how big of a sample do you need generally before you start making any 5-bet bluffs if you have no specific reads?
Click to expand...

Yeah, usually between 2 - 8%.

As far as 5-bet bluffs, well either a good read that someone is playing back a little too often, or a lot of hands. Maybe 20k+.
 
Sneaky Feet said:
I've tried to 4-bet 4 times in the last couple days and it doesn't seem to be working too well for me. The first time villain folded, the next 2 times I was shoved on and had to fold out. The last time which just happened I got beaten on the river. Not having a lot of fun with 4betting currently.
Click to expand...

It's going to invite some variance, but just make sure you're picking your spots AND opponents well.

The hand above, is generally a good spot, but knowing a little more about villain would be good.
 
John A said:
It's going to invite some variance, but just make sure you're picking your spots AND opponents well.

The hand above, is generally a good spot, but knowing a little more about villain would be good.
Click to expand...

Lol yes, variance. Currently it's being a bionic b***h!
 
John A said:
Yeah, usually between 2 - 8%.

As far as 5-bet bluffs, well either a good read that someone is playing back a little too often, or a lot of hands. Maybe 20k+.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks! 🙂
 
Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally
 
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Figaroo2 said:
Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally
Click to expand...


Thanks Figaroo2 I appreciate that. Your comments are timely because I was starting to think that 4 betting may not be the best line to take on .02. Like you say the majority of players bet what they see so raising a 3 bet is going to warrant a higher percentage of shoves because most players a 3 betting pocket pairs or AK. I will definitely be choosing my spots better. After all that is part of the practice 🙂
 
Figaroo2 said:
Sneaky feet I like your K8 spot and you were unlucky to lose to the 6 on the river so don't worry about that hand too much but it shows why hands like K8 suited are good to 4 bet as they give you a chance if you are called. and you can easily fold to a shove.
I have been experimenting with 4 betting a lot since the turn of the year and have found that generally at 2nl once players have three 3 bet they are committed to the hand so 4 bet bluffing is fruitless unless you can find a regular that is 3 betting too much. This is the key to 4 bet bluffs its very player dependant, move up to 5, 10 and 25nl and there is much more 3 betting and many more spots where 4 bet bluffing will work. At 25nl my 4 bet success rate is 100% where my 50% of my 4 bets are bluffs at 10 nl 4 bet success is 65% but it falls to 37% at 2nl.
4 betting without shoving also appears at the lower limits to command the respect of the table and makes players think before 3 betting you or messing with you generally
Click to expand...

Yeah, don't 4-bet bluff in games where guys are not 3-betting enough. This is ONLY against opponents who are 3-betting say at least 8% from that position. If they are 3-betting that much, then they do have plenty of bluffs in their range that will fold out. Obviously the higher this number is, the better for you.
 
Better week 4 betting is working well cash and tourneys

🙂
Trying not to call 3 bets especially oop. Still working on reducing my limping in.
Any comments on the 4 betting range.
 

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Good goals Fig... and try and reduce cold calling OOP with marginal hands. Be more definitive with your decisions OOP.
 
Alright so pages 88-89. Everyone understand 4-bet bluff sizing? Important to understand and risk the least amount possible to accomplish your goal.

I want to finish this chapter off and go to some of the topics I mentioned earlier.
 
GTG. If you're sitting with 100bb and villain 3 bets 18bb a 4bet should be between 25-27bb. If you're sitting at around 150bb and villain 3bets 18bb you should 4bet between 48-67bb. When stack sizes are bigger than 150bb 4bet wider (but in position) for value vs. bluffs.

Good?
 
That's a huge 3-bet whether it's 100bbs or 150bbs. You couldn't 4-bet to 25 unless you opened to like 9bbs. 🙂 And if 150bbs, then you'd still 4-bet around 22-27% of your stack. Really after 140bbs, 4-bet bluffing can become quite unproftable, unless you're doing it with some value hands that can flop big when you're called. Generally speaking, I wouldn't 4-bet bluff very often after you hit the 140bb effective stack threshold unless you have a really good reason.
 
Really need to catch up on this thread. i was taking a break from playing for a bit.
 
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