Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 · Feb 20, 2015

going ok but stacked very last hand of the day

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $25.45 (101.8 bb) 16/13/31 in 420 , marked as a decent reg.
BB: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
UTG+1: $29.36 (117.4 bb)
UTG+2: $33.95 (135.8 bb)
MP1: $16.75 (67 bb)
MP2: $23.85 (95.4 bb)
MP3: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $64.30 (257.2 bb)
BTN: $25.43 (101.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6:spade: 6:heart:
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, BTN folds, SB calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) 6:club: A:heart: J:heart: (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.61, SB raises to $3.22, BB folds, Hero raises to $9.66, SB raises to $24.70 and is all-in, Hero calls $15.04

Turn: ($51.65) 2:heart: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($51.65) 9:diamond: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $51.65 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: 6:club: A:heart: J:heart: 2:heart: 9:diamond:
SB showed J:diamond: J:club: and won $49.65 ($24.20 net)
BB mucked and lost (-$0.75 net)
Hero showed 6:spade: 6:heart: and lost (-$25.45 net):musicus:
Difficult to put him on JJ here, I was hoping he had AJ or AK maybe KhQh?

Figaroo2 · Feb 20, 2015

mottotom27 said:
I have a couple of questions.
1) Since I am a microstakes player, are the "ideal stats ranges" for each stat taken from a microstakes database or from all databases (micro to high stakes)?
2) I am a breakeven player at 10nl over a fairly small sample. In the trial I ran the analysis and it displayed 46 leaks - is this to be expected? For a winning microstakes player, how many leaks might you expect on average as a rough estimate?
If you could answer these questions I'd appreciate it, cheers.

46 is probably about right lol. I have a full leakbuster licence, if John is too busy shout me up on skype/viewer and I can take you through it.

John A · Feb 20, 2015

mottotom27 said:
PT4. Well i suppose the serial number is essentially the license code to buy the product? I am confused since the trial itself does not give access to the full features of leak buster, only a limited selection which makes it harder to decide whether it is worthwhile to buy. It looks promising though. It would help if you could tell me a little more about the product, since I have a couple of questions.

1) Since I am a microstakes player, are the "ideal stats ranges" for each stat taken from a microstakes database or from all databases (micro to high stakes)?
2) I am a breakeven player at 10nl over a fairly small sample. In the trial I ran the analysis and it displayed 46 leaks - is this to be expected? For a winning microstakes player, how many leaks might you expect on average as a rough estimate?

If you could answer these questions I'd appreciate it, cheers.

Yes, correct. The license section is only needed when you want to register. The trial is limited, but it will give you an idea of some of the things it can do. The HM trial has a bit more functionality. I plan to expand the PT version a little more. It's a fine line because you don't want to give away the house. There's over 1200 pages of written content in Leak Buster across multiple languages. And I don't even know how much in transcripts from videos. I didn't even realize how much was really there until I went to add Russian translation recently and I was like... crap... this is going to cost a fortune to do.

We kept adding content for such a long time, I didn't realize what it added up to. lol

To your questions..

1) The ranges AND advice are split into micro stake, and then small/mid+. Since the only major gap occurs between those stake levels. Keep in mind, the range info is a small part of what leak buster will do. I'd youtube some of our videos so you can get an idea. I'm actually planning on doing a new set for LB 4 since everything that was done was on LB 3.
2) Yes, this is typical. But these leaks are broken into categories. The critical and important ones are the crucial ones. Beyond that there's going to be some that it will label and explain you need to watch or keep your eye on. Most of the value for you will be in making sure you're not too out of alignment with basic stuff, but then there's a ton of filters it's going to look through as well. I believe it's ~ 480 leaks or so that's it's scanning your database for.

I don't have an exact average, but when we've run LB on winning players there's typically been between 20-35ish leaks. I'm a customer of my own product and a winning player and I have 22 leaks in ~ 250k sample size (just looked and I can post), w/ over 12bb/100 winrate. So I hope that puts it into perspective a bit. And the great thing about LB, even for someone who was the primary designer, is it caught leaks I didn't even know I had lol... but they were legit leaks. It's a good reminder and it helps keep me on my A game.

But bottom line is if you get it and really don't like it, I don't want your money. I think we've been selling Leak Buster for about 5 years or so now.. I think we have 3 returns. One of them from a CC member too! Bastards. lol

fishinthesea · Feb 21, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Dealt to Hero [ Tc 9c ]
The fact that player 1 called 1.82 on the flop indicates to me that he has hit part of it at this point. We have a ten blocker so hitting the 7 looks more likely. In any case if he has a ten we are going to be outkicked. Then he bets big on the river.
He probably has a 7 or ten and are beat by both..... I fold.
I did consider whether or not we could check raise this flop with top pair and two backdoor draws, there will be plenty of cards that should allow us to fire again on the turn.

Dealt to Hero [ Kd Js ]
Re the double barrel. I just compared KJ to a 26% opening range and KJo is a 44% to 56% underdog so you are likely to be behind at the start of the hand. If you are going to play may as well 3bet and try to get the initiative.
Once he has called here you are almost certainly behind, I suspect 99 TT JJ are in his 3bet calling range so you better hope he buys the 'bluff package'. It's more believable in a 3 bet pot i suppose. If I had AK/AQ in his shoes I'd give it up on the turn.
If I was in his shoes with TT/JJ it might need a third barrel from you, and hope an overcard to his hand falls.
In my eyes, with the combo count it, would be to me more likely that you are barreling AK/AQ as have JJ beat. It depends on how he sees you, how often have you 3bet the btn and what what you have shown down on the btn and how agg you have been recently. If you have been aggressive and capable of 3 barreling air I might call you down with an overpair to the board.

I did 3bet the pot. I 3bet it because he was opening a wide range.

Figaroo2 · Feb 21, 2015

fishinthesea said:
I did 3bet the pot. I 3bet it because he was opening a wide range.

Yes I know I didn't explain very well. I agreed that 3betting was the best way to play the hand primarily because KJ offsuit is still a10% equity dog to his 'wide' 26% opening range. I was suprised by this deficit I thought I would be more even tbh.
Im not a fan of KJ here personally there are plenty of dominating king hands in his range. KJ is the classic trouble hand.
You should however be able to make up that equity deficit using position and a bit of aggression.

John A · Feb 21, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Difficult to put him on JJ here, I was hoping he had AJ or AK maybe KhQh?

Yeah, this is the suck part of poker. No way you're ever folding here. He can for sure have those hands. Probably AK not as much, but even A6 could be possible.

mottotom27 · Feb 22, 2015

John A said:
Yes, correct. The license section is only needed when you want to register. The trial is limited, but it will give you an idea of some of the things it can do. The HM trial has a bit more functionality. I plan to expand the PT version a little more. It's a fine line because you don't want to give away the house. There's over 1200 pages of written content in Leak Buster across multiple languages. And I don't even know how much in transcripts from videos. I didn't even realize how much was really there until I went to add Russian translation recently and I was like... crap... this is going to cost a fortune to do. We kept adding content for such a long time, I didn't realize what it added up to. lol

To your questions..

1) The ranges AND advice are split into micro stake, and then small/mid+. Since the only major gap occurs between those stake levels. Keep in mind, the range info is a small part of what leak buster will do. I'd youtube some of our videos so you can get an idea. I'm actually planning on doing a new set for LB 4 since everything that was done was on LB 3.
2) Yes, this is typical. But these leaks are broken into categories. The critical and important ones are the crucial ones. Beyond that there's going to be some that it will label and explain you need to watch or keep your eye on. Most of the value for you will be in making sure you're not too out of alignment with basic stuff, but then there's a ton of filters it's going to look through as well. I believe it's ~ 480 leaks or so that's it's scanning your database for.

I don't have an exact average, but when we've run LB on winning players there's typically been between 20-35ish leaks. I'm a customer of my own product and a winning player and I have 22 leaks in ~ 250k sample size (just looked and I can post), w/ over 12bb/100 winrate. So I hope that puts it into perspective a bit. And the great thing about LB, even for someone who was the primary designer, is it caught leaks I didn't even know I had lol... but they were legit leaks. It's a good reminder and it helps keep me on my A game.

But bottom line is if you get it and really don't like it, I don't want your money. I think we've been selling Leak Buster for about 5 years or so now.. I think we have 3 returns. One of them from a CC member too! Bastards. lol

Thanks for the explanation. Only 3 refunds, that's pretty decent! I have bought the software and so far it looks promising. There are some leaks I hadn't even considered which the program drew my attention too, e.g. my fold to river bet was 90%! Today I adjusted by calling river more and found villains to be showing up with bluffs a lot more often than I thought.

My main concern right now is that the complexity of the program. There seems to be a heck of a lot of information dotted around in different places and I haven't quite managed to navigate my way around all the content yet. I suppose this is something you can get used to over time through trial and error, but if there exists a quick tutorial guide explaining all the features and how to get the most out of leak buster, could you please link it to me?

John A · Feb 22, 2015

It's actually pretty simple. Just go through the leaks in step 1. Everything you need is right there. If you want to go into more detail, then you can go to the individual steps. But everything you need as far as leak importance, related leak hands to your leak, advice, video and written advice is right there.

You can check out the user manual, and there are some slightly older videos on using it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWEckjaSEKY

I do need to put out an updated version for LB4. If you have any specific questions, you can always ask me as well.

Figaroo2 · Feb 22, 2015

John
I have always had a bit of trouble with interpretation of the positional thermometers in leakbuster I just don't find this step as intuitive as the others.
Also i'm getting a regular error message as attached.

mottotom27 · Feb 22, 2015

I was talking to Bruce (figaroo) over skype and I also agree the positional thermometers were quite hard to interpret. Also just how reliable is the information regarding sample size? e.g. i have almost 10k hands on my new HUD now. Is 10k enough for leak buster to get a fairly accurate view on your leaks, or would you need more like 50k to be confident the leaks are legitimate?

John A · Feb 23, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
John
I have always had a bit of trouble with interpretation of the positional thermometers in leakbuster I just don't find this step as intuitive as the others.
Also i'm getting a regular error message as attached.

What version of LB are you running? When are you getting this error? This was an local date/time issue that was resolved a long time back.

As far as the step 4, it's simple. The first drop down is showing you how much you won or lost when opening those hands (and then you can toggle on the bottom by position), and it's showing you your biggest losers on the bottom. You can click on any of them and load the hands and data. Then you have cold call, squeeze, etc... Based on a few filters and the data LB is looking out it will point out some specific feedback based on that.

But really... it's all in step 1. It's nice to drill deeper and see everything of course, but if it ever gets confusing at all just remember, really everything you need is in that first step. I should call the other parts advanced. Some people love them and use them a ton and others don't at all.

Figaroo2 · Feb 23, 2015

John A said:
What version of LB are you running? When are you getting this error? This was an local date/time issue that was resolved a long time back.

Looks like version 4.0.2.2
Tom and I scrolled around my leakbuster database for an hour or so yesterday so he could see the full functionality. We went back for 6 months and for the first time ever I'm not showing any critical leaks

and just 3 important ones all on 4 betting. I reran it this morning just for 2015 and its showing as below.

The error message started flagging up when we were in step 7 but this morning it kept popping up in step 4 when I had another look at those thermos

John A · Feb 23, 2015

mottotom27 said:
I was talking to Bruce (figaroo) over skype and I also agree the positional thermometers were quite hard to interpret. Also just how reliable is the information regarding sample size? e.g. i have almost 10k hands on my new HUD now. Is 10k enough for leak buster to get a fairly accurate view on your leaks, or would you need more like 50k to be confident the leaks are legitimate?

Yeah, the more the hands the better. There used to be a meter to let you know about the sample size. It's still there on steps 2/3... but 50k+ is recommended.

John A · Feb 23, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Looks like version 4.0.2.2
Tom and I scrolled around my leakbuster database for an hour or so yesterday so he could see the full functionality. We went back for 6 months and for the first time ever I'm not showing any critical leaks and just 3 important ones all on 4 betting. I reran it this morning just for 2015 and its showing as below.

The error message started flagging up when we were in step 7 but this morning it kept popping up in step 4 when I had another look at those thermos

Nice... congrats! And I know your game is really improving overall. I'm sure you're feeling a whole lot more confident too.

As far as the error... I assume this is when you're running filters within step 4? I mean any specific details about what your did before would be helpful. Thanks. I haven't seen an error in LB in a long time.

rhombus · Feb 23, 2015

On the thermometer Step should there be advice for each position, the only advice I get is for MP for Open Raised.

PS i got similar error as Bruce, when I clicked on Squeeze. then same error for Limped and Cold Call, and then again when i reselelect Open Raise

this is clipboard for Squeeze, not sure if same for all others

System.FormatException: String was not recognized as a valid DateTime.
at System.DateTimeParse.Parse(String s, DateTimeFormatInfo dtfi, DateTimeStyles styles)
at System.DateTime.Parse(String s)
at TImPbXdntNFDQT6KcH.ifFTn1XniiLOAKwUaa.PxbcaqrBvK(XmlElement )
at TImPbXdntNFDQT6KcH.ifFTn1XniiLOAKwUaa.iY9PqFWB5Z(Stake , String , Boolean , Int32 , Boolean , Boolean , DateTime , DateTime )
at LeakBuster2._5.Step4Infos.LJdPewlLaD(List`1 step4Infos, List`1 allAdvices, Stake , String , Boolean , Int32 , Boolean , Boolean , DateTime , DateTime )
at PpdjGWrRFkSv072eDr.VA3dyWLsTascOXvIIg.J4J7ZHebH(Boolean , Stake , String , Boolean , Int32 , Boolean , Boolean , DateTime , DateTime , String )
Internal version: 992

hans28 · Feb 23, 2015

hi there,

I am new to this board.
I am looking for a free coach and a poker friend.
Just pm me if interested or post in this thread.

Figaroo2 · Feb 23, 2015

Do we bet for thin value here?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.48 (125.9 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb) decent reg
UTG+2: $26.08 (104.3 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP3: $26.37 (105.5 bb) LAG
Hero (CO): $27.85 (111.4 bb) i'm showing 16/11/56 in 122
BTN: $21.78 (87.1 bb) FISH 14/3/33 in 50 hands shortly after this hand he got stacked about 10 mins later with a dumb 2 pair.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A:club: J:club:
3 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, SB folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.10) A:spade: 5:spade: 4:club: (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $1.48, BTN calls $1.48, 2 folds

Turn: ($6.06) 6:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.89, BTN calls $2.89

River: ($11.84) T:diamond: (2 players)

Hero??
I don't have much of a read on this guy at this point other than hes a bit fishy.
Quite a few draws there which miss on the end.
I'm only really beating busted draws and A 9/8/7/3/2.
Losing to AK AQ the other A 2pair hands, sets, maybe the odd 78s
Seems close,
Id hate it if he checked behind with A9/8/7
Bet/fold or check/call, check/fold if he goes big?

John A · Feb 24, 2015

rhombus said:
On the thermometer Step should there be advice for each position, the only advice I get is for MP for Open Raised.

PS i got similar error as Bruce, when I clicked on Squeeze. then same error for Limped and Cold Call, and then again when i reselelect Open Raise

Cool... thanks. I'm going to have the developer look at it tomorrow.

John A · Feb 24, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $31.48 (125.9 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb) decent reg
UTG+2: $26.08 (104.3 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP3: $26.37 (105.5 bb) LAG
Hero (CO): $27.85 (111.4 bb) i'm showing 16/11/56 in 122
BTN: $21.78 (87.1 bb) FISH 14/3/33 in 50 hands shortly after this hand he got stacked about 10 mins later with a dumb 2 pair.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A♣ J♣
3 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, SB folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.10) A♠ 5♠ 4♣ (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $1.48, BTN calls $1.48, 2 folds

Turn: ($6.06) 6♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.89, BTN calls $2.89

River: ($11.84) T♦ (2 players)

Hero??
I don't have much of a read on this guy at this point other than hes a bit fishy.
Quite a few draws there which miss on the end.
I'm only really beating busted draws and A 9/8/7/3/2.
Losing to AK AQ the other A 2pair hands, sets, maybe the odd 78s
Seems close,
Id hate it if he checked behind with A9/8/7
Bet/fold or check/call, check/fold if he goes big?

Yeah, he doesn't look too aggressive so I'd bet/fold $6. If he was full stacked I'd be betting more on the turn since there's value to be had there a lot. I don't mind the smaller bet considering stack and the fact that he most likely won't shove a bluff.

John A · Feb 24, 2015

Can you Rhombus and Fig, please e-mail our support with this config file:
LBGuide.hem

It's located here by default:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Holdem Manager 2\Config

We couldn't re-produce so we need to see what's in your file so we can fix the issue. TY!

fishinthesea · Feb 24, 2015

3betting IP WORKS

I've been working on my 3bet, trying to keep it mainly in position against fishy-er players. results!!!!

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, February 24, 09:58:59 ET 2015
Table El Camaleon (real money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $25.88 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 7, 3B: 2, AF: 1.4, Hands: 170
Seat 2: Hero ( $40.83 USD ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 11191
Seat 3: Player3 ( $24.50 USD ) - VPIP: 34, PFR: 10, 3B: 10, AF: 4.0, Hands: 62
Seat 4: Player4 ( $9.75 USD ) - VPIP: 51, PFR: 10, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 70
Seat 5: Player5 ( $30.00 USD ) - VPIP: 42, PFR: 22, 3B: 5, AF: 1.2, Hands: 135
Seat 6: Player6 ( $7.72 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 6, 3B: 0, AF: 2.0, Hands: 48
Player3 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Tc Ah ]
Player5 raises [$0.75 USD]
Player6 folds
Player1 folds
Hero raises [$2.50 USD]
Player3 folds
Player4 calls [$2.25 USD]
Player5 calls [$1.75 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, 6s, Th ]
Player4 checks
Player5 checks
Hero bets [$2.25 USD]
Player4 folds
Player5 raises [$4.50 USD]
Hero calls [$2.25 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
Player5 bets [$9.05 USD]
Hero raises [$33.83 USD]
Player5 calls [$13.95 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]

Player5 shows [9h, Ts ]
Hero shows [Tc, Ah ]
Hero wins $60.60 USD from main pot
Hero wins $10.83 USD

fishinthesea · Feb 24, 2015

Awk spot

3-bet pot again. Not sure how I like the way I played this. Villain was check/calling every street and didn't play back at all. Comments?

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, February 24, 10:55:39 ET 2015
Table El Camaleon (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 7, 3B: 2, AF: 1.4, Hands: 170
Seat 2: Hero ( $64.86 USD ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 11191
Seat 3: Player3 ( $27.85 USD ) - VPIP: 50, PFR: 25, 3B: 8, AF: 2.6, Hands: 36
Seat 4: Player4 ( $18.13 USD ) - VPIP: 51, PFR: 10, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 70
Seat 5: Player5 ( $27.97 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 13
Seat 6: Player6 ( $30.28 USD ) - VPIP: 71, PFR: 26, 3B: 15, AF: 2.0, Hands: 101
Player3 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9s As ]
Player5 folds
Player6 raises [$0.85 USD]
Player1 folds
Hero raises [$2.70 USD]
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player6 calls [$1.85 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 3d, 2c ]
Player6 checks
Hero bets [$2.75 USD]
Player6 calls [$2.75 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
Player6 checks
Hero bets [$5.75 USD]
Player6 calls [$5.75 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
Player6 checks
Hero bets [$22.75 USD]
Player6 folds
Hero shows [9s, As ]
Hero wins $21.62 USD from main pot
Hero wins $22.75 USD

fishinthesea · Feb 24, 2015

Had to lay this down the other day. Tanked for a good minute on the river and didn't know what to do. Of course he has the Queen, right??!
***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 23, 01:01:56 ET 2015
Table Lena (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 2: Hero ( $99.72 USD ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 11191
Seat 3: Player3 ( $29.50 USD ) - VPIP: 49, PFR: 9, 3B: 3, AF: 0.7, Hands: 76
Seat 4: Player4 ( $25.84 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 17, 3B: 8, AF: 2.2, Hands: 148
Seat 5: Player5 ( $24.89 USD ) - VPIP: 56, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 16
Seat 6: Player6 ( $32.49 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 1.7, Hands: 96
Player4 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player5 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kh Kd ]
Player6 raises [$0.75 USD]
Hero raises [$2.50 USD]
Player3 calls [$2.50 USD]
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 6s, 4c ]
Hero bets [$3.00 USD]
Player3 calls [$3.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
Hero bets [$6.80 USD]
Player3 calls [$6.80 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Hero checks
Player3 bets [$17.20 USD]
Hero folds

Player3 shows [7h, 8s ]
Player3 wins $24.42 USD from main pot
Player3 wins $17.20 USD

John A · Feb 25, 2015

fishinthesea said:
I've been working on my 3bet, trying to keep it mainly in position against fishy-er players. results!!!!

Yup, it works... and it always helps when they flop the weaker trips.

John A · Feb 25, 2015

fishinthesea said:
3-bet pot again. Not sure how I like the way I played this. Villain was check/calling every street and didn't play back at all. Comments?

Just be careful against these kinds of fish. The Q on the turn helps a lot, and allows you to get some folds vs. your shove. But some of these really sticky fish can't fold anything. Just make sure you're really being aware if they are a chasing fish. Someone who will call a street or 2, but give up, and the really sticky fish that just won't fold anything.

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