The best poker player ever?

dmorris68 · Aug 31, 2010

madtom1337 said:
Where's Dwan?

Not an all around great player. NLHE is his game, PLO he's pretty good. And he's strictly a cash game specialist, not much of an tournament record.

madtom1337 said:
And who's Johnny Moss anyway?

Level?

One of the all time greats. First wsop winner (which at the time was composed almost entirely of cash game road players). I believe Doyle considers him the best ever. Moss or Chip Reese, which I would say deserves a spot on that Top 5 list, at least ahead of Doyle or Chan.

madtom1337 said:
And Chan's mainly a donkament player, right?

He's a high stakes cash player too. Wrote a book about FLE cash games, I think. He plays all the games.

bullishwwd · Aug 31, 2010

AntiKhrist said:
I'm going to have to agree with Stu Unger! Really tragic story though.

If you've never seen the movie about him, check it out!

what might be the name of the movie ... what actor played Stu? Wally

bullishwwd · Aug 31, 2010

what

Where does Phil Hellmuth come in...he currently holds so many records?

dmorris68 · Aug 31, 2010

bullishwwd said:
what might be the name of the movie ... what actor played Stu? Wally

I assume he means "High Roller: The Stu Ungar Story," with Michael Imperioli playing Stu.

A terrible movie, and largely inaccurate by all accounts including the author of his biography Nolan Dalla, so I wouldn't recommend it as an accurate portrayal of Stuey's life. Dalla's book itself, "One of a Kind: The Rise and Fall of Stuey 'the Kid' Ungar, the World's Greatest Poker Player," would be a much better choice.

bullishwwd said:
Where does Phil Hellmuth come in...he currently holds so many records?

lolz. Phil is only the greatest poker player in his own little mind.

Suited Frenzy · Aug 31, 2010

I say Chip Reese. Stu or Ivey would be my other choices if I didn't like Chip so much.

He didn't play that many tournaments because for a long time he was away from poker & when he did play, he only played the big cash games. But Chip is/was the best all-around player ever IMO.

R.I.P. Chip

SavagePenguin · Aug 31, 2010

Any answer someone comes up with is subjective because the game has changed so much.

When Stu won in 1980 there were only 73 entrants.
When Sty won in 1981 there were only 75 entrants.
When Stu won in 1997 there were 312 entrants.
I would guess that *none* of these players has played a million hands of poker. That's a hard number to get to without multi-tabling online.

In the post-Moneymaker era, the WSOP Main Event has averaged about 6,300 players. Far more of these players have read and studied and applied themselves to the game. They play millions of hands online and know the game thoroughly.
Yes there are donkeys, but there are a lot more sharks than there have ever been in the game.

Phil Ivey winning two bracelets and making the ME final table last year, then winning another bracelet this year puts him on the top of the list in my opinion.
Most poker professionals today point to Ivey as the best poker players in the world, and the worlds has never been this poker savvy before.

Leo 50 · Aug 31, 2010

Chip Reese was considered one of the best there ever was by guys like Doyle, Johnny Chan and even Hellmuth.
They all agree that had he lived, Unger, would have been an amazing player.

Right now most of the pros in poker consider Ivey to be the best.

And for the guy who asked Johnny Moss was,
he was the very first WSOP Main Event winner (although he was voted in)
They started the tournament at Binions because of Moss.

onemorechance · Aug 31, 2010

SavagePenguin said:
Most poker professionals today point to Ivey as the best poker players in the world, and the worlds has never been this poker savvy before.

/thread

MrPokerVerse · Aug 31, 2010

madtom1337 said:
Where's Dwan? And who's Johnny Moss anyway? And Chan's mainly a donkament player, right?

Both Chan and Moss are in the Poker Hall Of Fame. Both with back to back wins. To do it two years in a row regardless of the field size speaks for itself. Chan and donkament don't belong in same sentence or paragragh for that matter.

Get a cash game with Chan, let me know how that works out for you.

5TR8 FLUSH · Aug 31, 2010

Daniel72 said:
For Stu Ungar it was easier to outplay his opponents at his time. His aggrostyle was very new for his opponents.
I think Phil Ivey is the best poker player of all time, not the other Phil (Hellmouth with his 11 bracelets)

I agree phil Ivey is the best of all time and also that Ungar had a big advantage only facing under 80 players and his style of play was an advantage against many of the other players. I think "hellmouth" is a great player but wouldn't make the top 10 list.

bullishwwd · Aug 31, 2010

How do you "explain" the records that he holds if it is only in his own mind?

Seriously, I ask.

Money11Charlie · Aug 31, 2010

For longevity in the game and mulitple games of cards I would definately have to say Doyle Brunson.He is a statue in the poker world and forever will the be the respectful gentleman.He is the best now and forever.

Marginal · Aug 31, 2010

All you guys are forgeting the true greats, let me make a presentation

dmorris68 · Aug 31, 2010

bullishwwd said:
How do you "explain" the records that he holds if it is only in his own mind?

Seriously, I ask.

My response was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but the fact remains that he's the greatest poker player in the world... only in his own mind.

I wouldn't want to dig up and repeat the discussion we're having in the latest Phil Helmuth thread, but you can find a lot of our opinions of him there.

What records does he hold besides his WSOP records? He's a prolific WSOP player.

Basically, many of us feel that his day is over. He was at one point a great tournament player, but the game has evolved past him and he fails to recognize it, still being caught up in his "I'm the greatest poker player ever" fantasy world. He excelled at one specific game (Hold'em) in one specific format (tournaments) that are different today than when he was winning bracelets. Contrast that with the likes of Doyle, Chan, Ivey, Negreanu, etc. who play and do well at all kinds of games. He may be one of the greatest specialists, and certainly he's a WSOP golden goose, but he's far far away from the greatest players in the game.

onemorechance · Aug 31, 2010

MrPokerVerse said:
Get a cash game with Chan, let me know how that works out for you.

This is such a ridiculous point, so I will answer in a similarly ridiculous manner. Get Chan in a deep cash game with Dwan, Ivey, Antonius, Galfond or like any HSNL online player and see how that works out for him

Marginal · Aug 31, 2010

I take jaime gold. He said top top mofo.

onemorechance · Aug 31, 2010

marginal said:
I take jaime gold. He said top top mofo.

YouTube- Jamie Gold - Top/Top

mig2169 · Aug 31, 2010

well brunson ranks unger as the best, soi can't arguee with that. If he was around for all this internet stuff he would of raked in millions.

Marginal · Aug 31, 2010

Lol I love that video. I love Jaime Gold.

Poker Orifice · Aug 31, 2010

JoeShowdown obviously.
(mostly cuz he gotszz confidence in his showdowns!)

OzExorcist · Aug 31, 2010

bullishwwd said:
How do you "explain" the records that he holds if it is only in his own mind?

Seriously, I ask.

Recent long and drawn out discussion on that very topic: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/phil-helmuth-great-player-overrated-181773/

Cliff notes of the case for the negative:

- He's played more WSOP events than pretty much anyone, so it stands to reason through sheer weight of numbers that he's got the most bracelets. Ivey has almost as many and he's only played a fraction of the number of WSOP tournaments that Hellmuth has

- Hold 'em is the only game he's better than OK at

- Who said bracelets and tournament records were everything anyway?

MrPokerVerse · Aug 31, 2010

onemorechance said:
This is such a ridiculous point, so I will answer in a similarly ridiculous manner. Get Chan in a deep cash game with Dwan, Ivey, Antonius, Galfond or like any HSNL online player and see how that works out for him

Yeah, about as ridiculous as Chan being a donkament. Think Chan would hold his own in cash game with the likes of those gents.

onemorechance · Aug 31, 2010

MrPokerVerse said:
Yeah, about as ridiculous as Chan being a donkament. Think Chan would hold his own in cash game with the likes of those gents.

A donkament is a tournament, it's not meant to be a slight on a particular player. And, no, no he wouldn't

dmorris68 · Aug 31, 2010

onemorechance said:
A donkament is a tournament, it's not meant to be a slight on a particular player. And, no, no he wouldn't

I don't know where you're getting your information, but I'd call you out as being wrong about Chan's cash game.

Chan is a regular in Bobby's Room alongside Doyle & Co., and he's done quite well in PAD and HSP cash games. In fact he says himself that he's a better cash game player than a tournament player.

alaskabill · Aug 31, 2010

onemorechance said:
This is such a ridiculous point, so I will answer in a similarly ridiculous manner. Get Chan in a deep cash game with Dwan, Ivey, Antonius, Galfond or like any HSNL online player and see how that works out for him

I think Chan could hold his own but that would be lousy game selection. Chan likes to play cash games with wealthy fish from what I've read. Much higher ROI.

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