Does Size Really Matter?

I often play the local MTTs and I keep track of a mental snapshot of how I ran in the tournament overall.

The games I'm referring to are usually from $60 - $120 and average 6 - 10 tables.

I have come to the conclusion that I seem to overwhelmingly do better in the tournament when I'm right around 10m hitting the final table. ( Yes I prefer to use m).

When I hit the final table as chip leader, it usually seems I get sucked out on more.

Any of you Live MTT grinders out there see this?

10 million?

If so then you must configure yourself to the amount of chips you have getting to the final table.

If you get to the final table with such an over-easy way of calculating chips, then you must have skill... Try playing like a total maniac 2/5 times from those winnings and you'll rely less on your chip stack and more on your tourney life outcome---in time.

P.S. Remember, the new guy coming into a small town will always get the girl unless he's totally disfigured... Meaning, don't rely on your playing ability as a sense of direction--that direction being getting to the final table with a large stack. Time and time again, have I relied on a chip lead to "win" me the game...

^^^ Check out that final table... I've done better when I DON'T have the chip lead... btw, I got 3rd in that tourney... no, 2nd...

likely a combination of small sample size/variance and people playing badly vs. small stacks.

MTTs are about adjusting to the conditions and for sure people overestimate their edge with big stacks and probably play too loose when payout jumps are large.

Payouts are never massive, they rarely top $1500 for first.

I take a photo of all the cashes to keep the casinos honest when it comes to points accumulated towards their monthly freerolls for 20K for the top 100 players.

In the above game, we were 5 remaining and I was stacked well.

Just a vicarious pictorial for those in need of a Casino diversion .

.
blue - 5K
yellow - 1K
grey - 500
orange - 100

jumps in payouts are usually pretty large.

eqgh5uea said:

10 million?

If so then you must configure yourself to the amount of chips you have getting to the final table.

If you get to the final table with such an over-easy way of calculating chips, then you must have skill...

Click to expand...

I don't think he means million!

LOL @ "10 million"

I would think the size of your stack is varible depending on the number of players as well as your "luck". With more players 10m is worth less than if there are fewer players.

eqgh5uea said:

10 million?

If so then you must configure yourself to the amount of chips you have getting to the final table.

If you get to the final table with such an over-easy way of calculating chips, then you must have skill... Try playing like a total maniac 2/5 times from those winnings and you'll rely less on your chip stack and more on your tourney life outcome---in time.

P.S. Remember, the new guy coming into a small town will always get the girl unless he's totally disfigured... Meaning, don't rely on your playing ability as a sense of direction--that direction being getting to the final table with a large stack. Time and time again, have I relied on a chip lead to "win" me the game...

^^^ Check out that final table... I've done better when I DON'T have the chip lead... btw, I got 3rd in that tourney... no, 2nd...

Click to expand...

Samango said:

I don't think he means million!

Click to expand...

dmorris68 said:

LOL @ "10 million"

Click to expand...

Sorry guys, I missed the "10 Million?" line above.

I know most of you guys are familiar with "M ratio" but but at one time we all were uninformed. So for those on the way up, heres a link.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio

Make a great weekend all.
Chris

CAMurray said:

I often play the local MTTs and I keep track of a mental snapshot of how I ran in the tournament overall.

The games I'm referring to are usually from $60 - $120 and average 6 - 10 tables.

I have come to the conclusion that I seem to overwhelmingly do better in the tournament when I'm right around 10m hitting the final table. ( Yes I prefer to use m).

When I hit the final table as chip leader, it usually seems I get sucked out on more.

Any of you Live MTT grinders out there see this?

Click to expand...

Are you sure it might not be related to your play when chip leader. It is tempting with all those chips to put yourself in situations you would not put yourself in when you are only 10M.

CAMurray said:

Sorry guys, I missed the "10 Million?" line above.

I know most of you guys are familiar with "M ratio" but but at one time we all were uninformed. So for those on the way up, heres a link.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio

Make a great weekend all.
Chris

Click to expand...

Thanks.

P.S. How many other useless definitions/abbreviations/"formulas" are there in poker? I learned how to divide to percentages in grade 5.

Oh, I thought this thread was about keyboards...

easy to get lost in a big stack of chips u say.it's just poker,but i do prefer not to be in last at a final table s.its not easy to be the one to suckout on the big chip leader at the final table

, Like Pooffy. I thought this thread was about something else. ..........

My wife says size is not important, but my friends say thats bad that she feels the need to tell me that.

And WOW... 10 M....... (you speaking in meters here right, pretty fkn impressive)

eqgh5uea said:

.

Click to expand...

A FT SS.............


Major sigh............

CAMurray said:

I often play the local MTTs and I keep track of a mental snapshot of how I ran in the tournament overall.

The games I'm referring to are usually from $60 - $120 and average 6 - 10 tables.

I have come to the conclusion that I seem to overwhelmingly do better in the tournament when I'm right around 10m hitting the final table. ( Yes I prefer to use m).

When I hit the final table as chip leader, it usually seems I get sucked out on more.

Any of you Live MTT grinders out there see this?

Click to expand...

I will actually make a post on topic.

I will start playing in MTTs here in Germany (or Austria, its not thatr far from where I live) in January. The buy ins are €50 to €150 on average. SO like $80 to $200 give or take. I will be making some posts on how I roll, but in my naive thinking, I would love to FT as CL.

MediaBLITZ said:

Are you sure it might not be related to your play when chip leader. It is tempting with all those chips to put yourself in situations you would not put yourself in when you are only 10M.

Click to expand...

I think MediaBlitz is right. You may be opening up your range and/or calling all-in shoves with marginal hands that are -ev. Mostly i see people with large M's calling too much. When you have a large stack its good to put pressure on littler stakes but not to flat call. Think about how you play with 10M and whats your range. If you can't beat hands in that range don't call a 10M shove with 50M. Also remember that 10M in chips is worth more than 50M. It's all about ev. You can't win a tournament until you get heads up. (OK there are rare cases)
If your tournaments are like ours they are top heavy. I find lately that i have been doing better when i try to pick my spots and play not to lose instead of trying to win with 6+ players left.

seachicken said:

I think MediaBlitz is right. You may be opening up your range and/or calling all-in shoves with marginal hands that are -ev. Mostly i see people with large M's calling too much. When you have a large stack its good to put pressure on littler stakes but not to flat call. Think about how you play with 10M and whats your range. If you can't beat hands in that range don't call a 10M shove with 50M. Also remember that 10M in chips is worth more than 50M. It's all about ev. You can't win a tournament until you get heads up. (OK there are rare cases)
If your tournaments are like ours they are top heavy. I find lately that i have been doing better when i try to pick my spots and play not to lose instead of trying to win with 6+ players left.

Click to expand...

Okay, I agree with everything except the bolded part.

So you're saying the 10m in chips equals 50m in stance, meaning you're counting other people's chips as future value? My God, how useless are these poker abbreviations?

eqgh5uea said:

Okay, I agree with everything except the bolded part.

So you're saying the 10m in chips equals 50m in stance, meaning you're counting other people's chips as future value? My God, how useless are these poker abbreviations?

Click to expand...

They're not useless. If you're not familiar with the concept of M and cEV, then I'd strongly suggest you read a book or join a coaching site that teaches tournament poker.

dmorris68 said:

They're not useless. If you're not familiar with the concept of M and cEV, then I'd strongly suggest you read a book or join a coaching site that teaches tournament poker.

Click to expand...

I was familiar with division in grade 5 and I guess it's not useless coz I needed it to pass grade 5---so, you're right!

P.S. Good job!

P.S.S. I was at a LL game and ITM and I had a FH so we went to a B&M to play a LAG player with ATC HU and we were in LP coz the casino was closing because it was losing MGRs so they were OOTM and my PT said that the PTR was the PTL coz I was BB so they were UTG and we played NLHE and added RB for the casino so they started getting ITM as well as us, and these were the T&C for the SSNL game and I made a VB to win the pot and this was a SD.

LL = Lower Limit games
ITM = In the Money
FH = Full House
B&M = Brick & Mortar
LAG = Loose Aggressive Player
ATC = Any Two Cards
HU = Heads Up
LP = Late Position
MGR = Monthly Gross Revenue
OOTM = Out of the Money
PT = Poker tracker
PTR = Player to my Right
PTL = Player to my Left
BB = Big Blind
UTG = Under the Gun
NLHE = No Limit Hold' Em
RB = Rakeback
ITM = In the Money
T&C = Terms and Conditions
SD = Standard Deviation

P.S.S.S. I just read a poker book!

eqgh5uea said:

Okay, I agree with everything except the bolded part.

So you're saying the 10m in chips equals 50m in stance, meaning you're counting other people's chips as future value? My God, how useless are these poker abbreviations?

Click to expand...

That is not what i am saying. I really should have said "remember that 10m is worth more per chip than 50m in terms of $ev.(dollar expected value) " The reason i brought this up is because i feel the op may be looking at situations in terms of Cev (chip expected value) instead of $ev when leading the tournament. I play at least 4 live MTT's a month similar to the op. When i have the lead going to the final table i really have to focus on what i gain compared to what i lose when making tough decisions.

CAMurray said:

I often play the local MTTs and I keep track of a mental snapshot of how I ran in the tournament overall.

The games I'm referring to are usually from $60 - $120 and average 6 - 10 tables.

I have come to the conclusion that I seem to overwhelmingly do better in the tournament when I'm right around 10m hitting the final table. ( Yes I prefer to use m).

When I hit the final table as chip leader, it usually seems I get sucked out on more.

Any of you Live MTT grinders out there see this?

Click to expand...

for me CL would be great . although I have many times , I usually don't get to pushy yet . I let things take their course till right time for me . but 90% of the time I do come in at about 10m to start and have to be ready to make a move sooner . I'm not a live player though wish I was . jmo

PooffyFooffy said:

Oh, I thought this thread was about keyboards...

Click to expand...

fletchdad said:

, Like Pooffy. I thought this thread was about something else. ..........

My wife says size is not important, but my friends say thats bad that she feels the need to tell me that.

And WOW... 10 M....... (you speaking in meters here right, pretty fkn impressive)

Click to expand...

yup seen that title and thought we was puttin em on the table . I usually got a pretty nice m going into the final table
and yea fletch sorry she had to tell you that

eqgh5uea said:

I was familiar with division in grade 5 and I guess it's not useless coz I needed it to pass grade 5---so, you're right!

P.S. Good job!

P.S.S. I was at a LL game and ITM and I had a FH so we went to a B&M to play a LAG player with ATC HU and we were in LP coz the casino was closing because it was losing MGRs so they were OOTM and my PT said that the PTR was the PTL coz I was BB so they were UTG and we played NLHE and added RB for the casino so they started getting ITM as well as us, and these were the T&C for the SSNL game and I made a VB to win the pot and this was a SD.

LL = Lower Limit games
ITM = In the Money
FH = Full House
B&M = Brick & Mortar
LAG = Loose Aggressive Player
ATC = Any Two Cards
HU = Heads Up
LP = Late Position
MGR = Monthly Gross Revenue
OOTM = Out of the Money
PT = Poker tracker
PTR = Player to my Right
PTL = Player to my Left
BB = Big Blind
UTG = Under the Gun
NLHE = No Limit Hold' Em
RB = Rakeback
ITM = In the Money
T&C = Terms and Conditions
SD = Standard Deviation

P.S.S.S. I just read a poker book!

Click to expand...

well that really would make a good text on the phone or something , I understood most of it as we went along .
I'm NOT smarter then a fifth grader but I did notice you forgot to add and explain these two

SSNL = short stack no limit .. or .. super stack no limit :dontknow:
VB = value bet
I understand you point but at the same time realize our written language is evolving to something shorter and who knows where it will be in a few years . but Ty you did make me lol jaymfc

seachicken said:

That is not what i am saying. I really should have said "remember that 10m is worth more per chip than 50m in terms of $ev.(dollar expected value) " The reason i brought this up is because i feel the op may be looking at situations in terms of Cev (chip expected value) instead of $ev when leading the tournament. I play at least 4 live MTT's a month similar to the op. When i have the lead going to the final table i really have to focus on what i gain compared to what i lose when making tough decisions.

Click to expand...

10m is worth more coz of the derivative/constitution of gaining chips in the 1st place? So the proximation of 10m is derived from:

pre-era = chips (percentage of potential investment i.e.
100% of chips = 100% of winnings or/divided by 100% of chips = 100% of winnings divided by 3 or 5).
post-era chips = $$$
Brain ^^^
_______________________

0% = loss of 'equity' in $$$/chips clause---meaning, property of $$$
0% = gain of 'equity' in chips/$$$ clause---meaning, property of chips
100% = gain of 'equity' in chips/$$$ clause---meaning property of $$$
100% = loss of 'equity' in $$$/chips clause---meaning property of chips
Poker ^^^
_______________________
So you see 100% is 100% percent no matter which way you turn it around. What they should do is make
abbreviations for the place holders of/of everything below "equity" which is the the top since it =
the property of player divided by the concept of 100%---100% of expected value---100% of expected percentages
of the card combinations (you can't play poker by yourself!)---100% of chips---0% of money
(gravitational time dilation meaning, the earth divides into itself---gets smaller not bigger) the north pole
is the slowest part of the earth since gravity gets more affected by the cold/slower turning percentage of the
earth's rotation/north pole is a fulcrum/crank-inertia-placeholder) i.e. the sun creates more matter from it's
inertia reacting with Dark matter/dividing into itself.

jaymfc said:

for me CL would be great . although I have many times , I usually don't get to pushy yet . I let things take their course till right time for me . but 90% of the time I do come in at about 10m to start and have to be ready to make a move sooner . I'm not a live player though wish I was . jmo




yup seen that title and thought we was puttin em on the table . I usually got a pretty nice m going into the final table
and yea fletch sorry she had to tell you that

well that really would make a good text on the phone or something , I understood most of it as we went along .
I'm NOT smarter then a fifth grader but I did notice you forgot to add and explain these two

SSNL = short stack no limit .. or .. super stack no limit :dontknow:
VB = value bet
I understand you point but at the same time realize our written language is evolving to something shorter and who knows where it will be in a few years . but Ty you did make me lol jaymfc

Click to expand...

Sorry for making a mistake...